Author Topic: *** 10+ Sec Timesave on Investigation PA ***  (Read 2160 times)

KevinDDR

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*** 10+ Sec Timesave on Investigation PA ***
« on: November 07, 2018, 11:24:54 am »
Placeholder text.  :nesquik:

See you at 5PM PST.

Wouter Jansen

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Re: *** 10+ Sec Timesave on Investigation PA ***
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2018, 02:57:20 pm »
Oi (Preliminary text for being in awe)
sexy, this

Time was untied when set.

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Re: *** 10+ Sec Timesave on Investigation PA ***
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2018, 04:48:35 pm »
 :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik:  :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik:nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik:
teh peoples champ

Whiteted

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Re: *** 10+ Sec Timesave on Investigation PA ***
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2018, 05:09:51 pm »
Is that a pre-announcement I see?  :o



Tsk tsk tsk

Selenium Webdriver

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Re: *** 10+ Sec Timesave on Investigation PA ***
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2018, 10:36:47 am »
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/333480975?t=6h59m59s

Amazing execution of this strategy on Special Agent leads to SHOCKING new PR by Clemens!

VHGS

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Re: *** 10+ Sec Timesave on Investigation PA ***
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2018, 06:09:03 pm »
As far as I can tell this is how it works:
When the bot's movement is calculated, the acceleration is used to find the new speed, then the speed is used to find the new position. That's pretty typical, but it means that in a single iteration, the bot travels vt+at2 units, rather than vt+0.5at2. When t is very small, like a single frame, it's close enough. But, when there's lag, the game increases the value it uses for t to compensate, exaggerating the difference. Switching to the spycam causes enough lag to crank it up pretty high, or ridiculously high depending on the version of the game.

Also, the new speed is not validated at all, so it can be instantly bumped to much higher than the intended top speed, and then moved forward based on that speed, after which the bot gradually decelerates down to the top speed at its normal rate.

Probably everyone involved already knew that, but I stared at trace logs for like three hours so I'll be damned if I don't get to  :nerd: about it.

KevinDDR

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Re: *** 10+ Sec Timesave on Investigation PA ***
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2018, 06:29:24 pm »
Hey, thanks for the post VHGS. Explained it better than I could have.

There are far more ways to abuse this glitch being found so I have held off on writing off a post until we figure out what actually works. Hang tight.

Whiteted

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Re: *** 10+ Sec Timesave on Investigation PA ***
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2018, 01:57:32 pm »
When the bot's movement is calculated, the acceleration is used to find the new speed, then the speed is used to find the new position..

Switching to the spycam causes enough lag to crank it up pretty high..

Also, the new speed is not validated at all.. after which the bot gradually decelerates down to the top speed.

Yes thanks for the post VHGS. I've been busy but I should have posted sooner.

Getting a.t instead of a.t/2 is a good point but a equally large benefit can come from maintaining the high speed, as (surprisingly) your final point is not always true, it doesn't always begin decelerating immediately. Instead it seems to be a replacement for when it would do the stop and turn on the spot, but this needs a little more looking into.
Certainly zooms do seem to just be a product of huge lag.

I'll deposit my memory watch and extention of Henrik's lua scripts later this evening if you'd be interested.
I hope you join the discord if you haven't already :)

Guado

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Re: *** 10+ Sec Timesave on Investigation PA ***
« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2018, 04:58:14 pm »
Curious if hi-res has any place in this lagfest.
Holy points goldrush. Insane WRs today. Loved the zoom strat triple laser skip.

Can the camspy break lifts like on MBR or air base (and can we zoom the cleaning bots there for any good use?)

Not that the drone on Chicago is in the way, but can the bombspy break drone physics too?
« Last Edit: November 10, 2018, 05:52:40 pm by Guado »
90+ hrs into XC2 NG+, going for 100%. Be back when I get bored.

Whiteted

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Re: *** 10+ Sec Timesave on Investigation PA ***
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2018, 06:07:44 pm »
Yeah hi-res is a good shout. Probably won't add more than a frame or two but since we are pausing twice anyway it is basically free. May not be worth the effort of turning it on and off but I'll look into it.

Hoverbot data (extention of Henrik's Data/PD/ObjectData.lua which can be found here).
And a more approachable watch file of the hoverbot-of-interest's ObjectData.

Annoyingly the hoverbot doesn't seem to have any MotionData, so this may be all we have to work off in terms of memory watching.

Whiteted

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Re: *** 10+ Sec Timesave on Investigation PA ***
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2018, 01:34:14 pm »
First corner zoom strat idea which might work even better on console.

https://youtu.be/TR0hPM2960o

Edit: the next pad in the path is a long way away so on console it may well not loop back, or around, at all. Could be pretty speedy.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2018, 02:12:47 pm by Whiteted »

Your Eliteness

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Re: *** 10+ Sec Timesave on Investigation PA ***
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2018, 03:35:44 am »
I suspect the lag frame is what's responsible for warping Jo up through staircases on G5, and the Attack Ship slayer glitch where you warp up to above a room when you fire a fly-by-wire rocket. Presumably on each frame, the game bumps your height up by one "step" then drops you back to the ground. This is required for you to travel up stairs normally. When a lag frame is introduced, it multiplies the step height by the number of frames being skipped, and this has the potential to warp you to the floor above if the floor above is low enough.

The best way to try and exploit this would be to use hi res, and fire a weapon or cause an explosion right before launching the camspy.

Some ideas of how this could be exploited (these need to be tested):

* Investigation - warp OVER the lasers by standing on that invisible ledge and using momentum.
* Chicago - warp out of the drain.
* G5 - warp onto the laser ducts from below.
* Air Base - try picking up the suitcase from outside the front door. Maybe also play around with equipping the horizon scanner. The ceiling is probably too high though.
* Air Base - warp up to the security terminal.
* MBR - warp up floors.

Also, anywhere where there's doors that slide sideways or swing. Introduce a lag frame while the door is closing on you. We may be able to warp onto the door and clip out, similar to Defection. Air Base PA near the safe area comes to mind...

Whiteted

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Re: *** 10+ Sec Timesave on Investigation PA ***
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2018, 01:40:00 pm »
From what I've seen of the bug clipping about, floors are something you 'snap to' so I doubt that lag could effect the vertical movement. I imagine it doesn't effect Joanna's vertical speed, just sets her y position (could easily be tested).

Clipping up is probably a question of
  • Getting within a certain height of the target floor (may depend on the height of the 'next floor down' and/or if there is one)
  • Getting under the target floor without crashing into stuff (where lag helps I'd imagine)

Is there a vid of this Attack Ship slayer glitch somewhere?

Quote
Introduce a lag frame while the door is closing on you. We may be able to warp onto the door and clip out, similar to Defection.

Sufficiently mad :) but I doubt the door even has a 'floor' on top of it - it's probably just colliding with the door which keeps you on top of it.

Wyst3r

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Re: *** 10+ Sec Timesave on Investigation PA ***
« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2018, 02:14:06 pm »
I know Joanna's Y coordinate mysteriously puts her higher up for 1 frame when using spies and that's why you can warp (works with non-stairs as well, e.g. if you jump just below a platform). Also if you look at the Y-speed in GE/PD, it's actually always very high (in the thousands), I guess approximating a normal force from the floor, and dictates the height of Joanna (I think ducking decreases this value?).

Edit: Apparently I misremembered, you never actually see the Y coordinate increase. Though it could still happen mid-frame. Would need to bring out the debugger to find out.

Did a quick comparison of the lag between camspy and regular weapon switch (using the delta value at 0x80208B00). A weapon switch lands somewhere between 10-15 (even with a bunch of smoke around), while camspy is around 80-85. So the difference is enormous.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2018, 02:28:40 pm by Wyst3r »

Your Eliteness

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Re: *** 10+ Sec Timesave on Investigation PA ***
« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2018, 02:21:24 am »
From what I've seen of the bug clipping about, floors are something you 'snap to' so I doubt that lag could effect the vertical movement. I imagine it doesn't effect Joanna's vertical speed, just sets her y position (could easily be tested).

Here's some pseudocode for what I imagine the movement code to look like:

Code: [Select]
new_x = jo->x + jo->x_speed * frame_multiplier
new_z = jo->z + jo->z_speed * frame_multiplier

test_y = jo->y + (jo->y_speed + step_height) * frame_multiplier
jo->y = find_ground_height(new_x, test_y, new_z)

Where frame_multiplier is 1 for a normal frame, 2 if a frame is being skipped, and so on.

To allow Jo to ascend a staircase, it must add the step height. And the step height must be multiplied by the frame multipler so she can ascend it while lagging. With a big lag frame, the test_y becomes significant higher, allowing Jo to warp up to the floor above.

I don't think monitoring Jo's Y value would help anything, as it wouldn't be modified until writing the new "dropped" value into it.

Is there a vid of this Attack Ship slayer glitch somewhere?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwAO8RiY2to

For context, he is in the left hallway just before the engine room.

Upon further consideration, I think this glitch works because the ceiling tiles might be incorrectly flagged as floor tiles which makes them walkable. When you are on the ceiling, if you try to move onto the ceiling of an adjacent room then you'll fall into the room, probably because those tiles are flagged correctly. I don't have easy access to the setup editor at the moment so I can't check this theory.

It's quite possible that the game doesn't let you warp up through tiles that are flagged as ceiling tiles, in which case most of my ideas won't work :\

Botched Movie Quotes

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Re: *** 10+ Sec Timesave on Investigation PA ***
« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2018, 05:24:25 am »
Though what explains the one frame camspy release which has no lag and still warps up stairs?
*Creator of 'waiting half a sec more cutscene' on b2 agent*
*Creator of 'bounce boost' on streets agent*
*Creator of 'strafe change laser skip' on inves*

Whiteted

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Re: *** 10+ Sec Timesave on Investigation PA ***
« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2018, 12:13:53 pm »
Though what explains the one frame camspy release which has no lag and still warps up stairs?

Potentially the weird y jumping that Henrik was describing. It's not entirely unreasonable as really you are moving from the camspy to Joanna, so it's not like you are entirely static.


This is certainly a fair model from what I've seen, for jo and hoverbot
Code: [Select]
new_x = jo->x + jo->x_speed * frame_multiplier
new_z = jo->z + jo->z_speed * frame_multiplier

This hmm..
Code: [Select]
test_y = jo->y + (jo->y_speed + step_height) * frame_multiplier
jo->y = find_ground_height(new_x, test_y, new_z)

The way you've put step height into it seems very artificial,  and isn't necessary to explain things like going up steps, which your find_ground_height can (imagining it like Mario64 where ground has some depth below it which grabs you and puts you up the top).

I'd take a guess that it differentiates between the main cases where Joanna is considered to be in contact with the ground and where she's not. But y speed going mad doesn't make much sense under that. Maybe the memory is re-purposed for something else, because it isn't needed while we're in contact?

Wyst3r

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Re: *** 10+ Sec Timesave on Investigation PA ***
« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2018, 02:49:08 pm »
I double checked, and as Karl says, quick-releasing the camspy doesn't produce any lag. What's more interesting though is that pausing skips the lag even when you don't unselect camspy. That means we save ~1.3 seconds (on emu at least) every time we actually control the camspy simply by doing a fast pause.

So basically, if you look at a run like Clemens' Chicago 25, you actually want to do a fast pause at ~27 seconds into the video when he selects the camspy the second time:


Would be great if someone could confirm this on console (just release a camspy at the start of e.g. Investigation and see how long it takes to reach the wall in front of you, with and without the fast pause) and see how much it saves there.

Edit: MW confirmed it on console (~0.3 secs?). The levels affected should be Chicago SA/PA, Air Base A, MBR A/SA/PA? I can't keep up with all the zoom nonsense on Invest to tell if it's useful there.

« Last Edit: November 13, 2018, 03:37:59 pm by Wyst3r »

Icy

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Re: *** 10+ Sec Timesave on Investigation PA ***
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2018, 06:27:31 pm »
Quick video making it more clear:


It seems to save about .4s on all of Air Base A, Chicago SA/PA, and MBR A/SA/PA as said above. This doesn't make the Spy faster, but simply decreases the lag (and thus won't work with bot zooms on Investigation).

This can also help consistency on Investigation with getting the Camspy to the isotope during the uplink.

The new strat madness continues! :v

wheatrich

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Re: *** 10+ Sec Timesave on Investigation PA ***
« Reply #19 on: November 14, 2018, 12:09:54 am »
If you can zoom a bot can you zoom say pres/elvis/etc?

Hopefully this game doesn't get TWINE'd for IL's.

KevinDDR

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Re: *** 10+ Sec Timesave on Investigation PA ***
« Reply #20 on: November 14, 2018, 03:27:59 am »
Thankfully no. There is another similar bug involving NPCs that is only significantly exploitable on Air Force One. All other "hope off-screen NPCs do stuff" stages where it could be taken advantage of would lose time no matter what due to being unable to run while repeatedly pausing.

Whiteted

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Re: *** 10+ Sec Timesave on Investigation PA ***
« Reply #21 on: November 14, 2018, 01:39:17 pm »
I can't keep up with all the zoom nonsense on Invest to tell if it's useful there.

Accurate description :)
Consensus seems to be that it's worth doing the 1-frame pause with the uplink to give more time for completing that radioactive objective, and potentially to build some speed while waiting for the password to crack.

I'll gather together and refine what Kevin and I found on AF1 soon, which should make 52 a little easier but still leaves 51 out of the picture atm. There is quite a bit still to look at on the level - like the president has 2 different base speeds and I haven't worked out what causes that yet. Fortunately the higher one is more common (probably).

Wyst3r

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Re: *** 10+ Sec Timesave on Investigation PA ***
« Reply #22 on: November 14, 2018, 03:16:01 pm »
Quote
There is quite a bit still to look at on the level - like the president has 2 different base speeds and I haven't worked out what causes that yet. Fortunately the higher one is more common (probably).

Sounds similar to Nat on Control, where her state when unloading determines her speed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9M_8w9ZClY0

The only difference I've noticed between GE/PD is the extra mode where the game starts updating positions less frequently (which happens for both loaded and unloaded NPC's). I never figured out what triggered that.

Whiteted

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Re: *** 10+ Sec Timesave on Investigation PA ***
« Reply #23 on: November 14, 2018, 05:35:04 pm »
Sounds similar to Nat on Control, where her state when unloading determines her speed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9M_8w9ZClY0

Yeah I thought so too.. hmm I was going to say it happens even when the president starts moving while unloaded, and stays unloaded.
But I guess the speed value could have been set when we last left him, and persisted even through starting moving. I really didn't look into it enough, I'll go back to AF1 next month I think.

Quote
The only difference I've noticed between GE/PD is the extra mode where the game starts updating positions less frequently (which happens for both loaded and unloaded NPC's). I never figured out what triggered that.

Maybe we can swap notes :)

MattCook

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Re: *** 10+ Sec Timesave on Investigation PA ***
« Reply #24 on: November 14, 2018, 11:41:24 pm »
Overall it's great that investigation has finally become a "go as fast as you can" level, and not totally ruined by needing to wait for the bot. Investigation is great again!

Selenium Webdriver

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Re: *** 10+ Sec Timesave on Investigation PA ***
« Reply #25 on: November 15, 2018, 10:30:34 am »
Overall it's great that investigation has finally become a "go as fast as you can" level, and not totally ruined by needing to wait for the bot. Investigation is great again!
When was it great in the past?

dsx

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Re: *** 10+ Sec Timesave on Investigation PA ***
« Reply #26 on: November 15, 2018, 11:03:56 am »
casual playthroughs
Updater of This Day In Elite History

Wodahs-Reklaw

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Re: *** 10+ Sec Timesave on Investigation PA ***
« Reply #27 on: November 17, 2018, 04:26:55 am »
Just a quick thought. If re-pausing a second time when using the camspy for Chicago saves time because it reduces lag, wouldn't pausing when you get the case also reduce lag?  I am guessing that the game is doing some logic in the pause menu? Or does it just work due to the special nature of the instant pause from the camspy?
Daniel Wodahs-Relklaw Coelho

mw

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Re: *** 10+ Sec Timesave on Investigation PA ***
« Reply #28 on: November 17, 2018, 10:38:00 am »
I believe it's the special nature of the camspy pause.
PD Proof Moderator

Whiteted

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Re: *** 10+ Sec Timesave on Investigation PA ***
« Reply #29 on: November 17, 2018, 03:47:02 pm »
I don't know about this case I'm afraid but pausing seems to skip other lag like that from drawing a weapon & returning from a cutscene. So if picking up this case makes a lot of lag then the answer is probably yes, but is it going to be worth the loss in speed & such?