VA 2019 Kart Tournament Discussion

[Jonesy]

Let's talk about this year's kart tourney.

Please feel free to share feedback/thoughts/ideas.

Here's a link to the current tournament roster: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Fd8CMZYJIRqAvL0meRw3oJ-ll59OeB0YsQpmVhqCKWk/edit?usp=sharing
Please let me know if your current status needs to be changed.

General Format:

- 4P Vs.
- All tracks Non-SC
- Cup order: Mushroom, Special, Star, Flower
- Everdrive with "tournament" ROM will be used

Autobids:

- Top 4-7 (based on number of entrants) earn Autobids to R16 (based on 2018 VA tournament finish)
- All other entrants must advance via Playins

Playins:

- With a larger field this year and more first-time players traveling specifically for the kart tournament I'm proposing that we should have two rounds for play-ins so that every player will get at minimum two official tournament rounds. The attached sheet has more information regarding the proposed playin format (as of right now we are projecting at 23 total players).
- Each entrant plays two full (16 races) rounds
- Players are ranked by total number of points across two rounds
- Top N players (based on number of total players) advance to R16
- Playin groups will be structured so that:
  -- No two players play the same person twice
  -- Groups strength is distributed evenly

R16:

- Autobids will be given a seed based on their 2018 VA finish
- Remaining seeds will be determined by playin ranking
- Each quarterfinalist plays two full (16 races) rounds
- Players are ranked by total number of points across two rounds
- Top 8 players advance to Semis
- R16 groups will be structured so that no two players play the same person twice

Semis:

- Following the discussion after last year's meet, I'm proposing the following change to the semi finals.
- Semis A and B will be populated by top 8 finishers from R16 as we have done in years past (1,4,5,8 and 2,3,6,7).
- The winners of Semis A and B will advance to the finals.
- The 4th place finishers of Semis A and B will be eliminated.
- The 2nd and 3rd place finishers from Semis A and B will the play Semi C (players seeded by points in Semis A and B for position choice).
- Top 2 from Semi C advance to finals.

Final:

- Final will be seeded by Semis point total (to determine position selection order)
-- Seed 1 - most points between winner of Semi A and Semi B.
-- Seed 2 - fewest points between winner of Semi A and Semi B.
-- Seed 3 - Winner of Semi C
-- Seed 4 - Runner-up of Semi C
- One round (16 races) is played
- Player with the most points is the Champion

Tiebreakers:

Tiebreaker - 2 Players tied:
- Players must unanimously agree on their choice of:
  -- 4P Vs: 2 idle characters, Best 2 out of 3, tracks chosen at random
  -- 2P GP: 1 cup, chosen at random (most GP points wins)
  -- 2P Vs: Best 2 out of 3, track chosen at random
- If no format can be agreed upon, 4P vs. with 2 idle characters will be played by default

Tiebreaker - 3 Players tied:
- Players must unanimously agree on their choice of:
  -- 4P Vs: 1 Idle character, Most points after 4 races, tracks chosen at random
  -- 3P Vs: Most points after 4 races, tracks chosen at random
- If no format can be agreed upon, 4P vs. with 1 idle character will be played by default

Tiebreaker - 4 Players tied:
  -- 4P Vs: Most points after 4 races, tracks chosen at random

Accidental Shortcuts:

- Do we need any further discussion on accidental shortcuts? Here's Dan's proposed ruleset from last year (which thankfully we didn't have to use):

1 Place Penalty for Accidental SC’s
- If a person takes an accidental shortcut, that person must pause immediately so that the players may discuss the situation. If that person resumes the race without pausing, that person will be assessed a 4th place finish for that race and everyone else’s totals will be adjusted upwards accordingly.  Players are responsible for knowing what constitutes a shortcut and what doesn’t - if you are unaware that you took an accidental shortcut and do not pause as a result, you will still be assessed a 4th place finish for that race.

- Generally, a penalty will be assessed in the form of having to stop exactly where you are until you are 1 place lower than you were when you took the shortcut, or until you are in last place if you were already in last place when you took the shortcut.  You must be in this position for at least 1 frame.  If you begin moving before this happens, it will result in being assessed a 4th place finish.

- During the pause and before resuming play, the other players should discuss the circumstances of the accidental shortcut.  If 2 or 3 of the other players (the ones not taking the shortcut) agree, they can decide that no penalty is assessed.  An example of this would be if someone has a seemingly insurmountable lead on a track and they are hit by a blue shell over a wall accidentally to take a shortcut.

- A countdown will be had before resuming play.  After pressing start and if a 1 place penalty was assessed, the player who took the accidental shortcut must immediately hold the B button without holding a direction on the controller until they come to a complete stop.  They must remain in that position until they have completed their penalty.

- The penalty for taking a shortcut on purpose is still an automatic 4th place finish for that race.

 

Schedule:

TUE 08:00 PM - 12:30 AM: Playins - 5 rounds
WED 08:00 PM - 12:30 AM: Playins - 5 rounds
THU 03:30 PM - 06:00 PM: R16 - 3 rounds
THU 08:00 PM - 12:30 AM: R16 - 5 rounds
FRI 08:00 PM - 10:30 PM: Semis - 3 Rounds
FRI 10:30 PM - 11:00 PM: BREAK
FRI 11:00 PM - 12:00 AM: FINALS 1 Round

[Ngamer]

I like everything about this suggested format.  Normally I want to get the Play Ins over quickly to get to the main event, but with such a large/talented field and players coming from so far away, I do agree everyone should be given two rounds to prove themselves.

The only thing I'd want to adjust from the above would be to start the Semis earlier, maybe like 4pm, so the Grand Finals aren't so late.  I like eating between rounds to give everyone at the house a little break and create anticipation for the Finals.  If we don't want to leave down time on the stream we could have 4 people play Battle Mode or something downstairs for a while, others can eat quickly and replace them on stream while the first 4 get their own meal, then we all meet back in the basement.

That still leaves us with the full afternoon free on Tuesday and Wednesday, which is I think good enough.

[jtmoney]

we have a decent amount of europeans who will want to watch the final right? that would make it anywhere from 4am-6am range I'd guess for starting time if we started at 11pm here. We should prob try to get that race in earlier.

As for having 3 semifinals races, I need to think about that a bit more. Thats putting people in to basically back to back tough rounds to get in a final and I'm also not sure how I feel about someone who finishes 3rd to get another chance at reaching a final.

Everything else seems fine. Agree that newcomers should get another rounds chance at qualifying. Can be daunting task to only get 1 round to qualify against tough competition. And also disappointing if you get knocked out and only get 1 competitive round.

[Jonesy]

As for having 3 semifinals races, I need to think about that a bit more. Thats putting people in to basically back to back tough rounds to get in a final

That's a good point. One option to deal  this would be to have Semi3 just before the final instead of just afer Semi2. That way the #2/#3 finishers of Semi1 and Semi2 are on even footing going into Semi3 and one of the benefits of winning Semis 1 and 2 are that you get a break instead of having to play in Semi 3 before the final.

I'm also not sure how I feel about someone who finishes 3rd to get another chance at reaching a final.

I think the the upside here is that it means that 3 of the 4 players in the finals have to win in order to advance as opposed to 2 out of 4. Ideally, I think you would want to have all 4 finalists having to win in order to advance, but I'm not sure how you accomplish that.

[TheFlash]

I think the the upside here is that it means that 3 of the 4 players in the finals have to win in order to advance

This is a very good compromise.

[Kazn]

I am sorry to trouble you, but Please change my Full name and AKA.

Full name:T Kayuza →　T Kazuya

AKA:T Kayuza　→　Kazuya

[Jonesy]

I am sorry to trouble you, but Please change my Full name and AKA.

Full name:T Kayuza →　T Kazuya

AKA:T Kayuza　→　Kazuya

Corrected. No trouble at all!

[Kazn]

I am sorry to trouble you, but Please change my Full name and AKA.

Full name:T Kayuza →　T Kazuya

AKA:T Kayuza　→　Kazuya

Corrected. No trouble at all!

Thanks for change.

[kyleb30]

I know I suggested it but I’m pretty indifferent about changing the semis format. If we did change to the proposed format, I think ngamers suggestion makes the most sense. The Friday schedule would look something like this
4pm semi 1
5pm semi 2
6pm dinner
7pm semi 3 (maybe even 730 start for this)
And then start the finals about 20-30 minutes after semi 3 ends

That way, you’re done by like 930 at the latest and everyone can enjoy the rest of the final night.

I have a few other minor suggestions based on the schedule. If there’s 5 playins to be played each night I think we should start at 730 so we can aim to be done at midnight. If there’s 4 rounds instead I think it’s fine to leave it as an 8 start time. Same logic can apply to the Thursday R16s.

I read over the shortcut policy and I think it’s fine. The only possible issue I can think of is if the shortcutting player ends up in a spot where the player’s position is being mapped inaccurately, but I can’t even think of a situation where that’d happen so it’s probably a moot point.

I know last year we kinda informally decided to use a simple classification tiebreaker in the event a tiebreak race was unnecessary (total 1sts, total 2nds, etc...), would that be used in the event of a pair of advancing players tying? Example, if the top 2 of a semi tied with X points would we make them play a tiebreak or could we just break it based on who had the most wins? I can’t remember if we ever decided anything there

[Jonesy]

I think ngamers suggestion makes the most sense. The Friday schedule would look something like this
4pm semi 1
5pm semi 2
6pm dinner
7pm semi 3 (maybe even 730 start for this)
And then start the finals about 20-30 minutes after semi 3 ends

That way, you’re done by like 930 at the latest and everyone can enjoy the rest of the final night.

That's fine with me, the reason I suggested the post-dinner time slot was for consistency with the other days. I'm not entirely sure we need such a long break between Semi 3 and the Finals. I think that would be the benefit/advantage of winning one of the first 2 semis. I think there should be a smallish break - maybe 10-15 minutes just to give a little breathing room, but not long enough that we don't lose half our stream viewers. It would be nice to fill that gap with something - maybe some battle mode shenanigans or something as ngamer suggested.

If there’s 5 playins to be played each night I think we should start at 730 so we can aim to be done at midnight. If there’s 4 rounds instead I think it’s fine to leave it as an 8 start time. Same logic can apply to the Thursday R16s.

The reason I suggested 8 PM as the start was just to account for the variability of when dinner might be served and to give us a little bit of breathing room between the end of dinner and the start of the rounds (allows us to get the stream set up if needed and allows competitors a bit of a chance to prepare/regroup before jumping into a round following a meal). It's not really a big deal either way, but that was my thought process behind the suggested times.

I know last year we kinda informally decided to use a simple classification tiebreaker in the event a tiebreak race was unnecessary (total 1sts, total 2nds, etc...), would that be used in the event of a pair of advancing players tying? Example, if the top 2 of a semi tied with X points would we make them play a tiebreak or could we just break it based on who had the most wins? I can’t remember if we ever decided anything there

I think this is a good callout. I will propose the following change:

If there is a tie that does not impact future round pairings, the default tiebreaker format will be based on the number of first place finishes that are within the scope of the tied scores (e.g., if players finishing #6 and #7 in R16 are tied you count the number of first place finishes across all rounds played in R16). If the tie cannot be resolved with first place finishes then it continues to 2nd place finishes and so on. If the tie cannot be settled in this manner or if there is unanimous agreement between all of the tied players they may choose their own format for settling the tie (e.g., rock paper scissors, N64 jeopardy, etc.) as long as the tiebreaker can be completed in a timely manner that does not impact the schedule of future rounds. If the competitors can still not reach an agreement then the tiebreaker will be done using 4p vs. with the rules outlined above.

[TheFlash]

We can definitely set the meal times around the tournament if that is an issue.

[kyleb30]

Yeah good points, I agree with pretty much everything that's been said. It's probably better to start later and be on time than to start earlier with a chance of having to push the start time back. And I agree that from a procedural standpoint, it's better to have a consistent post-dinner start time for the entire week. I'd be cool with leaving that at 8PM, it's really not a huge deal at all though.

And I'm cool with the last point, I agree that unless it would impact the actual make-up of matches, the extra races tiebreakers aren't really necessary. In practice, the 2 players can decide who picks ports whichever way they want (one person can always defer to the other) but at least on paper this is the easiest way imo.

I feel like we should settle in on a format (at least from R16 on) by the start of next week, if people have a say on the matter they should speak soon or it'll be viewed as they don't care one way or the other.

[Andy Hine]

Let's talk about this year's kart tourney.

Please feel free to share feedback/thoughts/ideas.

Here's a link to the current tournament roster: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Fd8CMZYJIRqAvL0meRw3oJ-ll59OeB0YsQpmVhqCKWk/edit?usp=sharing
Please let me know if your current status needs to be changed.

General Format:

- 4P Vs.
- All tracks Non-SC
- Cup order: Mushroom, Special, Star, Flower
- Everdrive with "tournament" ROM will be used

Autobids:

- Top 4-7 (based on number of entrants) earn Autobids to R16 (based on 2018 VA tournament finish)
- All other entrants must advance via Playins

Playins:

- With a larger field this year and more first-time players traveling specifically for the kart tournament I'm proposing that we should have two rounds for play-ins so that every player will get at minimum two official tournament rounds. The attached sheet has more information regarding the proposed playin format (as of right now we are projecting at 23 total players).
- Each entrant plays two full (16 races) rounds
- Players are ranked by total number of points across two rounds
- Top N players (based on number of total players) advance to R16
- Playin groups will be structured so that:
  -- No two players play the same person twice
  -- Groups strength is distributed evenly

R16:

- Autobids will be given a seed based on their 2018 VA finish
- Remaining seeds will be determined by playin ranking
- Each quarterfinalist plays two full (16 races) rounds
- Players are ranked by total number of points across two rounds
- Top 8 players advance to Semis
- R16 groups will be structured so that no two players play the same person twice

Semis:

- Following the discussion after last year's meet, I'm proposing the following change to the semi finals.
- Semis A and B will be populated by top 8 finishers from R16 as we have done in years past (1,4,5,8 and 2,3,6,7).
- The winners of Semis A and B will advance to the finals.
- The 4th place finishers of Semis A and B will be eliminated.
- The 2nd and 3rd place finishers from Semis A and B will the play Semi C (players seeded by points in Semis A and B for position choice).
- Top 2 from Semi C advance to finals.

Final:

- Final will be seeded by Semis point total (to determine position selection order)
-- Seed 1 - most points between winner of Semi A and Semi B.
-- Seed 2 - fewest points between winner of Semi A and Semi B.
-- Seed 3 - Winner of Semi C
-- Seed 4 - Runner-up of Semi C
- One round (16 races) is played
- Player with the most points is the Champion

Tiebreakers:

Tiebreaker - 2 Players tied:
- Players must unanimously agree on their choice of:
  -- 4P Vs: 2 idle characters, Best 2 out of 3, tracks chosen at random
  -- 2P GP: 1 cup, chosen at random (most GP points wins)
  -- 2P Vs: Best 2 out of 3, track chosen at random
- If no format can be agreed upon, 4P vs. with 2 idle characters will be played by default

Tiebreaker - 3 Players tied:
- Players must unanimously agree on their choice of:
  -- 4P Vs: 1 Idle character, Most points after 4 races, tracks chosen at random
  -- 3P Vs: Most points after 4 races, tracks chosen at random
- If no format can be agreed upon, 4P vs. with 1 idle character will be played by default

Tiebreaker - 4 Players tied:
  -- 4P Vs: Most points after 4 races, tracks chosen at random

Accidental Shortcuts:

- Do we need any further discussion on accidental shortcuts? Here's Dan's proposed ruleset from last year (which thankfully we didn't have to use):

1 Place Penalty for Accidental SC’s
- If a person takes an accidental shortcut, that person must pause immediately so that the players may discuss the situation. If that person resumes the race without pausing, that person will be assessed a 4th place finish for that race and everyone else’s totals will be adjusted upwards accordingly.  Players are responsible for knowing what constitutes a shortcut and what doesn’t - if you are unaware that you took an accidental shortcut and do not pause as a result, you will still be assessed a 4th place finish for that race.

- Generally, a penalty will be assessed in the form of having to stop exactly where you are until you are 1 place lower than you were when you took the shortcut, or until you are in last place if you were already in last place when you took the shortcut.  You must be in this position for at least 1 frame.  If you begin moving before this happens, it will result in being assessed a 4th place finish.

- During the pause and before resuming play, the other players should discuss the circumstances of the accidental shortcut.  If 2 or 3 of the other players (the ones not taking the shortcut) agree, they can decide that no penalty is assessed.  An example of this would be if someone has a seemingly insurmountable lead on a track and they are hit by a blue shell over a wall accidentally to take a shortcut.

- A countdown will be had before resuming play.  After pressing start and if a 1 place penalty was assessed, the player who took the accidental shortcut must immediately hold the B button without holding a direction on the controller until they come to a complete stop.  They must remain in that position until they have completed their penalty.

- The penalty for taking a shortcut on purpose is still an automatic 4th place finish for that race.

 

Schedule:

TUE 08:00 PM - 12:30 AM: Playins - 5 rounds
WED 08:00 PM - 12:30 AM: Playins - 5 rounds
THU 03:30 PM - 06:00 PM: R16 - 3 rounds
THU 08:00 PM - 12:30 AM: R16 - 5 rounds
FRI 08:00 PM - 10:30 PM: Semis - 3 Rounds
FRI 10:30 PM - 11:00 PM: BREAK
FRI 11:00 PM - 12:00 AM: FINALS 1 Round

Not that it needs to be changed right this second, but my full name is actually Andrew Hinrichs and the nickname I go by on Twitch and other sites is Andy Hine.

[Jonesy]

Not that it needs to be changed right this second, but my full name is actually Andrew Hinrichs and the nickname I go by on Twitch and other sites is Andy Hine.

Updated

[toughstache]

Was last year the first time you haven’t made the finals, Jones?

It really changes the semis. If I was in semi “A” or “B” , for example, then what incentive do I have not to just trash 4th and get into the next semi? It basically would be top 2 competing and bottom 2 competing in semi “A” and “B”

I think it will destroy more fierce, competitive, fun to watch karting and create more slight, hard for outsiders to determine, crap karting 

I will admit I didn’t read much other than what was proposed.

[UNO337FTW]

It really changes the semis. If I was in semi “A” or “B” , for example, then what incentive do I have not to just trash 4th and get into the next semi? It basically would be top 2 competing and bottom 2 competing in semi “A” and “B”

I think it will destroy more fierce, competitive, fun to watch karting and create more slight, hard for outsiders to determine, crap karting 

I will admit I didn’t read much other than what was proposed.

Hey Frankie, I think the fact that 4th place in either semi-final is eliminated would solve your question. Winners advance and 2nd/3rd from each semi-final play in Semi C where top 2 advance to the grand final. Does that help?

[toughstache]

“Not taking 4th” karting is way different than “top 2” karting.

Uno, situation hypothetical, were in semi A. I’m in first and youre in fourth but fighting
for 3rd. I am also far enough ahead to lose the last three races. I decide to sit back and lightning only you repeatedly, insuring you do not advance.

Guys, the more we mess with the format, the more advantage experienced players will have.

[toughstache]

Experienced “tournament” players. I consider myself experienced now and would most likely benefit from this format.

BUT I remember being new and getting trashed.

I am on your side Uno. Not my own lol

[Jonesy]

Was last year the first time you haven’t made the finals, Jones?

No.

“A” or “B” , for example, then what incentive do I have not to just trash 4th and get into the next semi? It basically would be top 2 competing and bottom 2 competing in semi “A” and “B”

The current Semis format incentivizes playing for 2nd as there is no benefit in finishing 1st or 2nd in your semi (other than preferred choice of controller port in the final - which isn't really that big of a deal imho). I believe an ideal solution would be to come up with a format that ONLY incentivizes playing for 1st, but I'm not sure what that format looks like (if anyone has any suggestions please provide them). The proposed change is a compromise or step in that direction where 3 of the 4 finalists will have to win a qualifying (semi) round in order to advance and it further incentivizes finishing 1st in Semi A and B because those players won't have to participate in Semi C which would take place prior to the final.

I think it will destroy more fierce, competitive, fun to watch karting and create more slight, hard for outsiders to determine, crap karting 

I'm not sure I know exactly what you mean. Can you elaborate?


EDIT: Regarding a format where all 4 finalists must win, this is one thought I had... You could have the first seed after R16 advance directly to the finals and then keep the above proposed semi format and the only the winners of semis A,B,C advance to the finals (completely eliminating advancement in 2nd). Some downsides to this that I can think of is that in the past the top seed out of R16 hasn't always advanced to the finals (2013 - Jones, 2014 - PYL, 2015 - Stinson, 2018 - Dan B) and that it removes one competitive round for that person (some people may not be bothered by this). One additional upside is that it would allow one additional person in R16 to advance (you would take players 2-9 and see the semis accordingly).

[toughstache]

I guess I don’t understand how playing for 1st, 2nd or 3rd instead of 1st or 2nd will promote better karting.

No one will ever play for 1st until the finals unless you literally have to take 1st in prior rounds to advance. So if your goal is to promote folks not to play for 2nd, then how is playing for 3rd instead any better?

[Walter]

The real question is why do we need to do this? Are we struggling to keep the VA semis competitive?? As if coming in second in a VA semi is easy? Depending who is in your round playing for first and playing for second are basically the same thing. This new format results in one more person having to take first, but gives four people a second chance to win a around and two people a second chance to move on after coming in third place. I’m not necessarily opposed to the change, but it is really arbitrary and a solution to a nonexistent problem.

[toughstache]

The real question is why do we need to do this? Are we struggling to keep the VA semis competitive?? As if coming in second in a VA semi is easy? Depending who is in your round playing for first and playing for second are basically the same thing. This new format results in one more person having to take first, but gives four people a second chance to win a around and two people a second chance to move on after coming in third place. I’m not necessarily opposed to the change, but it is really arbitrary and a solution to a nonexistent problem.

Walter drops mic*

[toughstache]

I read more carefully. I see the incentive for first in semis “A” and “B”. Sorry for the confusion Jones.

Walter still nailed it tho.

[toughstache]

Last thought: If 1st is ahead by a lot in semi A or B then it will become “don’t take last”

At least now a big lead is a three way fight for qualification in all semis

[Ngamer]

The tournament has been great and nothing NEEDS to change with the format.  This is just an idea that came up in the 2018 MK64 discussion topic last year, Boss and Kyle had some thoughts on tweaks and Zoran/Jones/me/Thingy liked them, this was the most popular of the change ideas.  The reason we were leaning towards this idea for the Semis is

- it takes two rounds to get through the Play Ins, then another two rounds once you make the Sweet 16... but in the Semis it can take just a few bad tracks and you're eliminated (by dropping to third for the round).  adding Semi C gives players in that situation a second chance to still secure a spot in the Finals

- this format rewards the first place finishers from A and B, they secure their Finals positions and can rest easy knowing they'll be the top seeds while the other four have another intense round to fight through

- the old format has drama over a single breakpoint (finishing 2nd instead of 3rd).  with this format there's excitement in Semis A and B over 1st to 2nd (as mentioned above) and also 3rd to 4th (for elimination).  Semis C returns the 2nd versus 3rd place drama

As regards someone using lightning/shells to manipulate results and try to keep someone out of the Finals, I see what Frankie is saying...  But isn't there LESS chance of manipulating/targeting this year versus last?

In 2018 if you had a large enough lead in the Semis to know you were locked in to a 1st or 2nd place finish, you would be able to spend the whole back half of the round targeting someone you didn't want to have to meet in the Finals, and if you cause enough problems to keep them in 3rd place, it works out for you.

In the 2019 format you can't afford to be focusing on someone else's point total, you need to concentrate and make sure you finish #1 overall to secure your spot.  If it's a total runaway and you have first locked up by the final three tracks, okay now you can start to target someone... but it's still going to be very difficult to keep them out of the Finals, since you have to knock them all the way back to 4th place.  Otherwise they're going to advance to Semi C where you have no control over the outcome and their play there will determine if they earn that Finals spot.

[Boss]

For the viewers the new semis format will be much better. You gotta WIN your way to the finals (or be 2nd in the C match).

[TheFlash]

Ng's made some fine points there.

On another note, I think we should have an official statement on competitiveness and integrity.  Not that we expect any of this to be an issue, but so all players have a common base of understanding.

This applies in all formats, but especially for the parts of the tournament where we tally an overall score from multiple rounds.  Things have mostly been good in recent years, but I think all participants should agree to some kind of note that they will always play to the best of their ability and so on.  Here are some of the types of situations that we may want to at least mention:

- Rage quitting or throwing the match -- I hope we can universally recognize that someone intentionally taking 4th place on every track in the round play sessions is incredibly unfair and should not be tolerated.

- Player targeting or kingmaking -- Can happen in concert with throwing a match, or while still trying to win....doing everything possible for someone else to earn either a high or low position on a course or the entire round. Any form of this where you are doing it only to help your own chances of advancing is almost surely fine. However, there are also definitely negative versions like collusion, grudge battles, etc. Some nuance is present here.

- Holding the tournament/match "hostage" for some reason

- Showing up on time for your match

[TheFlash]

How is the tournament ROM looking? I seem to recall doing some exploration in it for Drew after getting home from last year's event and accomplishing something, nut I've forgotten what it was by now. Any changes needed still?

[Walter]

For the viewers the new semis format will be much better. You gotta WIN your way to the finals (or be 2nd in the C match).

1. in your opinion
2. who cares about this really? we are already doing plenty to cater to viewers.
3. only two people will "win" their way in. there will be one person who lost-then-won, and one person who did not get a win

semis A/B would definitely be less exciting than a usual semi, though semi C would be more dramatic. also, again, this doesn't matter and we should be changing things only to improve the tournament(semis) for those playing in it as opposed to viewers. people will enjoy it regardless of what we put out there.

this format seems to shift the focus onto coming in first in a round, but i don't see what this accomplishes. It doesn't even really make things more competitive, as Ngamer mentioned. i think the "one bad round" aspect of the semis makes the current format highly competitive and exciting to watch. the solution is to not have a bad round when it counts, and this is coming from someone who has had a few of those.

how often do people really target those behind them in order to affect the next round as opposed to simply beating that person in the current round? this will definitely not cause people to try harder than usual to come in first, if you are in the VA semis you are trying as hard as possible to win every race. obviously if a race isn't going well you play it safer and get some points, but that will happen the same way in either format.

i don't even know if i am THAT opposed to the change, but i think it should be decided for better reasons than an improved viewing experience for some.

[toughstache]

Collusion or any type of group effort has definitely never been a problem (note to new folks)

But targeting for the sole benefit of the person doing it is also in the same category as “screen watching” lol

Great points from everyone for sure.

But if one of the semi final winners doesn’t win the finals, then there will be a true first, right?

[DanBurbank]

If anything needs to be adjusted it is the R16 format. People definitely have given up in the past few years and it absolutely effects the points.

[DanBurbank]

Semi C would be the same amount dramatic as a normal semi. I actually think this would be worse for the viewers. Feel like I'd do better with it though...lol

[wheatrich]

eh, I know there's losers brackets in tourns but I really dislike them, they're mostly so players get more than one game in which we already have.  The Saints and Chiefs didn't get to play another game.  Federer isn't gonna play the Thiem/Djok loser.  I actually did propose a similar format once in the previous round where it ends up there's a final match winner take all for the 8 seed.  Don't like it for the semis.

As it is proposed, winner of semi 1 versus 2nd in 2, 2nd in 3 has to play 2 in a row after someone's already made the finals.  If you want people *not* bitching about fairness when the tourn ends (well they are anyway but this is definitely gonna be worse)--you're gonna have to put the finals alone.  Not right after a match.

Some of you seem like it's more toward the old "this looks better for my chances" rather than any actual argument though you're all gonna have to vote on it.

[abney317]

Some interesting ideas for the semis. I'm really fine either way, but I think it would probably work out best if the format was as follows:

Semi A (Seeds 7 & 8): 1v1 on Big Donut (1 Match)
Semi B (Seeds 5 & 6): 1v1 on Block Fort (1 Match)
Semi C (Seeds 3 & 4): 1v1 on Double Deck (1 Match)
Semi D (Seeds 1 & 2): 1v1 on Rainbow Road (First to win 10)

The winner of each of those groups will move on to the finals:

The eliminated players from the semis will proceed to "Kevin's Booth" where they must come to a unanimous decision on the winner of VA 2019.

[Jonesy]

Semi D (Seeds 1 & 2): 1v1 on Rainbow Road (First to win 10)

I'd only be in favor of this but only if SCs are allowed.

[abney317]

Semi D (Seeds 1 & 2): 1v1 on Rainbow Road (First to win 10)

I'd only be in favor of this but only if SCs are allowed.

Whether or not SCs are allowed is determined after each race by a coin toss. If it was a non-sc race and 1 player did a shortcut, they automatically lose the race. If it was a non-sc race and both did a shortcut, then the race doesn't count.

[toughstache]

Semi D (Seeds 1 & 2): 1v1 on Rainbow Road (First to win 10)

The eliminated players from the semis will proceed to "Kevin's Booth" where they must come to a unanimous decision on the winner of VA 2019.

Holy crap, Beck  :rollin

Beck, Jones, Zoran 30/30 rainbow spiral.

[toughstache]

Wow I missed you guys lol

[DanBurbank]

Can it be 10cc Donut VS races?

[Andy Hine]

I am picking Lewis up from Dulles Airport on the 24th. I was wondering if anyone could take him back on the 29th if that's when he's leaving. I have to leave the night of the 28th after the finals. I'm driving back home for a family reunion and my birthday on the 29th.

I also have tried to get in touch with Eric but I haven't gotten a response back. Is he coming down with someone because he is about two hour out of my way. I wouldn't be able to drive him. I was wondering if he was getting a bus down to where I live.

[Jonesy]

I am picking Lewis up from Dulles Airport on the 24th. I was wondering if anyone could take him back on the 29th if that's when he's leaving. I have to leave the night of the 28th after the finals. I'm driving back home for a family reunion and my birthday on the 29th.

I also have tried to get in touch with Eric but I haven't gotten a response back. Is he coming down with someone because he is about two hour out of my way. I wouldn't be able to drive him. I was wondering if he was getting a bus down to where I live.

You should probably post this in the main VA topic.

[meleeman]

My real name can be updated to Jose Martinez.

[Ngamer]

Both sides make good points and I'm totally fine with using either format for the Semis.  Let's put it to a vote (with only people playing in this year's tournament having their votes counted).

Jones, could you do a poll topic when you get a chance, and link it here?  I don't want to make it myself and possibly misrepresent the format in the options.

[ZubyDoo77]

Let's talk about this year's kart tourney.

Please feel free to share feedback/thoughts/ideas.

Here's a link to the current tournament roster: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Fd8CMZYJIRqAvL0meRw3oJ-ll59OeB0YsQpmVhqCKWk/edit?usp=sharing
Please let me know if your current status needs to be changed.

General Format:

- 4P Vs.
- All tracks Non-SC
- Cup order: Mushroom, Special, Star, Flower
- Everdrive with "tournament" ROM will be used

Autobids:

- Top 4-7 (based on number of entrants) earn Autobids to R16 (based on 2018 VA tournament finish)
- All other entrants must advance via Playins

Playins:

- With a larger field this year and more first-time players traveling specifically for the kart tournament I'm proposing that we should have two rounds for play-ins so that every player will get at minimum two official tournament rounds. The attached sheet has more information regarding the proposed playin format (as of right now we are projecting at 23 total players).
- Each entrant plays two full (16 races) rounds
- Players are ranked by total number of points across two rounds
- Top N players (based on number of total players) advance to R16
- Playin groups will be structured so that:
  -- No two players play the same person twice
  -- Groups strength is distributed evenly

R16:

- Autobids will be given a seed based on their 2018 VA finish
- Remaining seeds will be determined by playin ranking
- Each quarterfinalist plays two full (16 races) rounds
- Players are ranked by total number of points across two rounds
- Top 8 players advance to Semis
- R16 groups will be structured so that no two players play the same person twice

Semis:

- Following the discussion after last year's meet, I'm proposing the following change to the semi finals.
- Semis A and B will be populated by top 8 finishers from R16 as we have done in years past (1,4,5,8 and 2,3,6,7).
- The winners of Semis A and B will advance to the finals.
- The 4th place finishers of Semis A and B will be eliminated.
- The 2nd and 3rd place finishers from Semis A and B will the play Semi C (players seeded by points in Semis A and B for position choice).
- Top 2 from Semi C advance to finals.

Final:

- Final will be seeded by Semis point total (to determine position selection order)
-- Seed 1 - most points between winner of Semi A and Semi B.
-- Seed 2 - fewest points between winner of Semi A and Semi B.
-- Seed 3 - Winner of Semi C
-- Seed 4 - Runner-up of Semi C
- One round (16 races) is played
- Player with the most points is the Champion

Tiebreakers:

Tiebreaker - 2 Players tied:
- Players must unanimously agree on their choice of:
  -- 4P Vs: 2 idle characters, Best 2 out of 3, tracks chosen at random
  -- 2P GP: 1 cup, chosen at random (most GP points wins)
  -- 2P Vs: Best 2 out of 3, track chosen at random
- If no format can be agreed upon, 4P vs. with 2 idle characters will be played by default

Tiebreaker - 3 Players tied:
- Players must unanimously agree on their choice of:
  -- 4P Vs: 1 Idle character, Most points after 4 races, tracks chosen at random
  -- 3P Vs: Most points after 4 races, tracks chosen at random
- If no format can be agreed upon, 4P vs. with 1 idle character will be played by default

Tiebreaker - 4 Players tied:
  -- 4P Vs: Most points after 4 races, tracks chosen at random

Accidental Shortcuts:

- Do we need any further discussion on accidental shortcuts? Here's Dan's proposed ruleset from last year (which thankfully we didn't have to use):

1 Place Penalty for Accidental SC’s
- If a person takes an accidental shortcut, that person must pause immediately so that the players may discuss the situation. If that person resumes the race without pausing, that person will be assessed a 4th place finish for that race and everyone else’s totals will be adjusted upwards accordingly.  Players are responsible for knowing what constitutes a shortcut and what doesn’t - if you are unaware that you took an accidental shortcut and do not pause as a result, you will still be assessed a 4th place finish for that race.

- Generally, a penalty will be assessed in the form of having to stop exactly where you are until you are 1 place lower than you were when you took the shortcut, or until you are in last place if you were already in last place when you took the shortcut.  You must be in this position for at least 1 frame.  If you begin moving before this happens, it will result in being assessed a 4th place finish.

- During the pause and before resuming play, the other players should discuss the circumstances of the accidental shortcut.  If 2 or 3 of the other players (the ones not taking the shortcut) agree, they can decide that no penalty is assessed.  An example of this would be if someone has a seemingly insurmountable lead on a track and they are hit by a blue shell over a wall accidentally to take a shortcut.

- A countdown will be had before resuming play.  After pressing start and if a 1 place penalty was assessed, the player who took the accidental shortcut must immediately hold the B button without holding a direction on the controller until they come to a complete stop.  They must remain in that position until they have completed their penalty.

- The penalty for taking a shortcut on purpose is still an automatic 4th place finish for that race.

 

Schedule:

TUE 08:00 PM - 12:30 AM: Playins - 5 rounds
WED 08:00 PM - 12:30 AM: Playins - 5 rounds
THU 03:30 PM - 06:00 PM: R16 - 3 rounds
THU 08:00 PM - 12:30 AM: R16 - 5 rounds
FRI 08:00 PM - 10:30 PM: Semis - 3 Rounds
FRI 10:30 PM - 11:00 PM: BREAK
FRI 11:00 PM - 12:00 AM: FINALS 1 Round

So other than Beck & Kyle, (who are covering all the Play Ins action) one of the remaining spots of the play by play analysts will be going twice during each night of the Play Ins? (My picks for going twice on the commentary is Jones & Weatherton in some order)

[ZubyDoo77]

Was last year the first time you haven’t made the finals, Jones?

No.

“A” or “B” , for example, then what incentive do I have not to just trash 4th and get into the next semi? It basically would be top 2 competing and bottom 2 competing in semi “A” and “B”

The current Semis format incentivizes playing for 2nd as there is no benefit in finishing 1st or 2nd in your semi (other than preferred choice of controller port in the final - which isn't really that big of a deal imho). I believe an ideal solution would be to come up with a format that ONLY incentivizes playing for 1st, but I'm not sure what that format looks like (if anyone has any suggestions please provide them). The proposed change is a compromise or step in that direction where 3 of the 4 finalists will have to win a qualifying (semi) round in order to advance and it further incentivizes finishing 1st in Semi A and B because those players won't have to participate in Semi C which would take place prior to the final.

I think it will destroy more fierce, competitive, fun to watch karting and create more slight, hard for outsiders to determine, crap karting 

I'm not sure I know exactly what you mean. Can you elaborate?


EDIT: Regarding a format where all 4 finalists must win, this is one thought I had... You could have the first seed after R16 advance directly to the finals and then keep the above proposed semi format and the only the winners of semis A,B,C advance to the finals (completely eliminating advancement in 2nd). Some downsides to this that I can think of is that in the past the top seed out of R16 hasn't always advanced to the finals (2013 - Jones, 2014 - PYL, 2015 - Stinson, 2018 - Dan B) and that it removes one competitive round for that person (some people may not be bothered by this). One additional upside is that it would allow one additional person in R16 to advance (you would take players 2-9 and see the semis accordingly).

Don't forget about 2017 where Dan faltered on Choco Mountain and failed to make the Finals as well.

[Joo]

Hi Jonesy.

John Badasci is AKA Joo.

Many thanks.

[UNO337FTW]

So other than Beck & Kyle, (who are covering all the Play Ins action) one of the remaining spots of the play by play analysts will be going twice during each night of the Play Ins? (My picks for going twice on the commentary is Jones & Weatherton in some order)

MGay has to do Fun Facts again.

[DanBurbank]

What's going on with this?

[Ngamer]

We'll have a vote once Jones is back from lunch.

[ZubyDoo77]

So other than Beck & Kyle, (who are covering all the Play Ins action) one of the remaining spots of the play by play analysts will be going twice during each night of the Play Ins? (My picks for going twice on the commentary is Jones & Weatherton in some order)

MGay has to do Fun Facts again.

Yes UNO Mgay is still doing fun facts as he is promoted to full time Fun Facts correspondent.