Greetings from The Grand Experiment

[StartsStrats]

To moderators: Removal of this topic constitutes an act of suppression.  You aren't thought police.  If these ideas have no merit, they will inevitably prove harmless; if they have merit, it is in *everyone's* best interest that they be heard -- that's just the way thought works.  

I have continually worked on expressing myself with the precision and respect that I intend.  Stated simply, The Elite represents the most remarkable organized group of gaming talent that I have ever found; stated simply, the results of their collective efforts have been nothing short of astounding.  Stated simply, I think their amazing abilities might be better cultivated if they broadened their horizons -- and their minds.

While we may be at the end of the Perfect Dark era, the era of videogaming has just begun.  The industry has, in many ways, surpassed even that of film; videogaming at the professional level is quickly becoming a reality.  Thus, there is no good reason to abandon gaming as a hobby.  Moreover, the pursuit of a career in gaming should not be casually dismissed, even by those of you who feel your mental capacities would be better suited to so-called "greater things" -- e.g. astrophysics, rocket science, etc.:

"Already I see games that have become, like so much great art, profound statements of freedom: The freedom to explore other worlds, other ways of life, other possibilities -- the freedom to achieve emotions, experiences, contentment, from a technological bauble, a device. To some this is a point of suspicion; surely, and for that very fact, the experiences it provides you with must at some point ring hollow?  However *I* feel that these same games can provide one with genuine outlets for the myriad of yearnings, of adventurings, that I believe are present in the very soul!"

Every videogame represents a profound intersection of Art and Science.  One of the great values of games is that they provide one with important opportunities, but opportunities whose significance ultimately rests on the individual's own dedication.  Not even the greatest breakthroughs in the history of science have eliminated the need for a person to carve out his own place in life; only interactive entertainment allows him to make profound achievements *regardless of that place*.

Perfect Dark is, in my opinion, the best gaming experience currently available.  It has an unparalleled level of refinement and polish -- it's developed by legendary designer Rare, as a second-party effort on behalf of the almighty Nintendo to boot.  It offers really the widest range of accessible (PC games have mod capability, but the complexity of this endeavor tends to defeat itself) gameplay of all time, and splitscreen multiplayer -- considered by many to be unrealistic -- in praxis combines the greatest aspects of fast-paced combat with the nigh-limitless tactical potential of traditional board (why? single board || single screen.) games like chess.

Now, let's get colloquial.  I've tried some more fast times.  I have made plenty of emotional room for them because of the interesting members I have met, but there is really no room for them in my argument.  Mario Kart is better for this type of experience, because it's 99% racing.  The nervous adrenalin rush of vying for a good run aside, trying to shave off seconds is boring!!!  Trying to find the new glitch that will cut a few more otherwise-meaningless seconds off the run is boring!!!  Living through the amount of random luck (boosts?) that is required for pretty much *any* given wr run at this point is, extremely, boring!!!  Boring, particularly compared with what's possible in the Combat Simulator.  Face it with an open mind and I am confident you will see that this is true -- I'm not condemning you for playing fast times, but I *am*, constructively, criticizing.  You could be playing ComSim matches right now that challenge you much more, but without being as frustrating as stuckages, door-opening battles, trial-and-error glitches, "Very High" restart counts, cutscene cues, framerate drops, etc.  In it just for the competition and find multiplayer to have too much randomness (really just the respawns) to be a good basis?  Then buzz off -- any given game really constitutes one of the dumbest things to compete in *for competition's sake*; it's way, way, *way* too specific for any sense of accomplishment to be particularly justified in an ultimate sense.  You dedicate yourself to a game because it represents something about your way of life.  So why not stop worrying about trying to best each other and just improve your skill while keeping things friendly?  If you're not in it just for the competition, you are doing Goldeneye, Perfect Dark, and the TimeSplitters a significant disrespect by neglecting multiplayer -- there almost certainly would be no Perfect Dark or even a Free Radical if not for the selling power of Goldeneye's multiplayer.  Let me say this in another way -- these games have great single player, but the single player is nothing compared to the mp.  I would say that's why The Elite exists in the first place...as an attempt to create an indirect multiplayer.  Now, just realize you can achieve this in a much more *coherent* (--ay, there's the rub) environment.  On the same cartridge.  "If you think about a weight training program, you add a little more weight, do a few more reps, etc.  mp is much better for this type of experience than fastimes is...you have the difficulty levels of the sims, the # of sims, your handicap, all that can be tweaked to create gradation."  It's like the difference between training on a figure-eight track, and one with a bizarre and extremely complex shape; in the long run, one just offers a more balanced experience than the other.

In closing, I apologize if I've offended any of you...this was certainly not my intention, since the whole point of spending this much time on a thoughtful essay in the first place is based on my considerable respect for this personable, remarkable group.  I feel that if these ideas are given some thought, you will realize there is not only room for them within the objectives of the Elite, but likely a need for them as well.  

Comment in here until tyranny asserts an iron fist.  Visit www.angelfire.com/az3/grandexperiment and pub17.ezboard.com/bthegrandexperiment .  Good-bye.....

[..]

yeah.. uhh.. leave and stuff.. no one cares a lot

you just waste space on the ezboard

*marks for...oh wait.. this isnt game faqs... boooooo

[GoldenGreg007]

ahahahahahahahaha.  *cough*  that was a long post.

[StartsStrats]

Awesome responses so far...awesomely pointless, that is.  Thanks though.

[SamSim]

Quote:To moderators: Removal of this topic constitutes an act of suppression. You aren't thought police. If these ideas have no merit, they will inevitably prove harmless; if they have merit, it is in *everyone's* best interest that they be heard -- that's just the way thought works.

"Do not delete this thread."

Quote:I have continually worked on expressing myself with the precision and respect that I intend. Stated simply, The Elite represents the most remarkable organized group of gaming talent that I have ever found; stated simply, the results of their collective efforts have been nothing short of astounding. Stated simply, I think their amazing abilities might be better cultivated if they broadened their horizons -- and their minds.

"The Elite needs to broaden its horizons."

Quote:While we may be at the end of the Perfect Dark era, the era of videogaming has just begun. The industry has, in many ways, surpassed even that of film; videogaming at the professional level is quickly becoming a reality. Thus, there is no good reason to abandon gaming as a hobby. Moreover, the pursuit of a career in gaming should not be casually dismissed, even by those of you who feel your mental capacities would be better suited to so-called "greater things" -- e.g. astrophysics, rocket science, etc.:

"Don't give up videogames. We're just getting started."

Quote:"Already I see games that have become, like so much great art, profound statements of freedom: The freedom to explore other worlds, other ways of life, other possibilities -- the freedom to achieve emotions, experiences, contentment, from a technological bauble, a device. To some this is a point of suspicion; surely, and for that very fact, the experiences it provides you with must at some point ring hollow? However *I* feel that these same games can provide one with genuine outlets for the myriad of yearnings, of adventurings, that I believe are present in the very soul!"

"Videogames rock."

Quote:Every videogame represents a profound intersection of Art and Science. One of the great values of games is that they provide one with important opportunities, but opportunities whose significance ultimately rests on the individual's own dedication. Not even the greatest breakthroughs in the history of science have eliminated the need for a person to carve out his own place in life; only interactive entertainment allows him to make profound achievements *regardless of that place*.

"Achievements in videogames count as proper achievements too."

Quote:Perfect Dark is, in my opinion, the best gaming experience currently available. It has an unparalleled level of refinement and polish -- it's developed by legendary designer Rare, as a second-party effort on behalf of the almighty Nintendo to boot. It offers really the widest range of accessible (PC games have mod capability, but the complexity of this endeavor tends to defeat itself) gameplay of all time, and splitscreen multiplayer -- considered by many to be unrealistic -- in praxis combines the greatest aspects of fast-paced combat with the nigh-limitless tactical potential of traditional board (why? single board || single screen.) games like chess.

"Perfect Dark is the best videogame ever. (Not in solo but in multiplayer.)"

Quote:Now, let's get colloquial. I've tried some more fast times. I have made plenty of emotional room for them because of the interesting members I have met, but there is really no room for them in my argument. Mario Kart is better for this type of experience, because it's 99% racing. The nervous adrenalin rush of vying for a good run aside, trying to shave off seconds is boring!!! Trying to find the new glitch that will cut a few more otherwise-meaningless seconds off the run is boring!!! Living through the amount of random luck (boosts?) that is required for pretty much *any* given wr run at this point is, extremely, boring!!! Boring, particularly compared with what's possible in the Combat Simulator. Face it with an open mind and I am confident you will see that this is true -- I'm not condemning you for playing fast times, but I *am*, constructively, criticizing. You could be playing ComSim matches right now that challenge you much more, but without being as frustrating as stuckages, door-opening battles, trial-and-error glitches, "Very High" restart counts, cutscene cues, framerate drops, etc. In it just for the competition and find multiplayer to have too much randomness (really just the respawns) to be a good basis? Then buzz off -- any given game really constitutes one of the dumbest things to compete in *for competition's sake*; it's way, way, *way* too specific for any sense of accomplishment to be particularly justified in an ultimate sense. You dedicate yourself to a game because it represents something about your way of life. So why not stop worrying about trying to best each other and just improve your skill while keeping things friendly? If you're not in it just for the competition, you are doing Goldeneye, Perfect Dark, and the TimeSplitters a significant disrespect by neglecting multiplayer -- there almost certainly would be no Perfect Dark or even a Free Radical if not for the selling power of Goldeneye's multiplayer. Let me say this in another way -- these games have great single player, but the single player is nothing compared to the mp. I would say that's why The Elite exists in the first place...as an attempt to create an indirect multiplayer. Now, just realize you can achieve this in a much more *coherent* (--ay, there's the rub) environment. On the same cartridge. "If you think about a weight training program, you add a little more weight, do a few more reps, etc. mp is much better for this type of experience than fastimes is...you have the difficulty levels of the sims, the # of sims, your handicap, all that can be tweaked to create gradation." It's like the difference between training on a figure-eight track, and one with a bizarre and extremely complex shape; in the long run, one just offers a more balanced experience than the other.

"Solo missions suck and are random. [I happen to agree with this.] Combat Simulator is the only real challenge left. Play CS!"

Quote:In closing, I apologize if I've offended any of you...this was certainly not my intention, since the whole point of spending this much time on a thoughtful essay in the first place is based on my considerable respect for this personable, remarkable group. I feel that if these ideas are given some thought, you will realize there is not only room for them within the objectives of the Elite, but likely a need for them as well.

"This took ages to write. Sorry if you don't like it."

[..]

Quote:To moderators: Removal of this topic constitutes an act of suppression. You aren't thought police. If these ideas have no merit, they will inevitably prove harmless; if they have merit, it is in *everyone's* best interest that they be heard -- that's just the way thought works.

I have continually worked on expressing myself with the precision and respect that I intend. Stated simply, The Elite represents the most remarkable organized group of gaming talent that I have ever found; stated simply, the results of their collective efforts have been nothing short of astounding. Stated simply, I think their amazing abilities might be better cultivated if they broadened their horizons -- and their minds.

While we may be at the end of the Perfect Dark era, the era of videogaming has just begun. The industry has, in many ways, surpassed even that of film; videogaming at the professional level is quickly becoming a reality. Thus, there is no good reason to abandon gaming as a hobby. Moreover, the pursuit of a career in gaming should not be casually dismissed, even by those of you who feel your mental capacities would be better suited to so-called "greater things" -- e.g. astrophysics, rocket science, etc.:

"Already I see games that have become, like so much great art, profound statements of freedom: The freedom to explore other worlds, other ways of life, other possibilities -- the freedom to achieve emotions, experiences, contentment, from a technological bauble, a device. To some this is a point of suspicion; surely, and for that very fact, the experiences it provides you with must at some point ring hollow? However *I* feel that these same games can provide one with genuine outlets for the myriad of yearnings, of adventurings, that I believe are present in the very soul!"

Every videogame represents a profound intersection of Art and Science. One of the great values of games is that they provide one with important opportunities, but opportunities whose significance ultimately rests on the individual's own dedication. Not even the greatest breakthroughs in the history of science have eliminated the need for a person to carve out his own place in life; only interactive entertainment allows him to make profound achievements *regardless of that place*.

Perfect Dark is, in my opinion, the best gaming experience currently available. It has an unparalleled level of refinement and polish -- it's developed by legendary designer Rare, as a second-party effort on behalf of the almighty Nintendo to boot. It offers really the widest range of accessible (PC games have mod capability, but the complexity of this endeavor tends to defeat itself) gameplay of all time, and splitscreen multiplayer -- considered by many to be unrealistic -- in praxis combines the greatest aspects of fast-paced combat with the nigh-limitless tactical potential of traditional board (why? single board || single screen.) games like chess.

Now, let's get colloquial. I've tried some more fast times. I have made plenty of emotional room for them because of the interesting members I have met, but there is really no room for them in my argument. Mario Kart is better for this type of experience, because it's 99% racing. The nervous adrenalin rush of vying for a good run aside, trying to shave off seconds is boring!!! Trying to find the new glitch that will cut a few more otherwise-meaningless seconds off the run is boring!!! Living through the amount of random luck (boosts?) that is required for pretty much *any* given wr run at this point is, extremely, boring!!! Boring, particularly compared with what's possible in the Combat Simulator. Face it with an open mind and I am confident you will see that this is true -- I'm not condemning you for playing fast times, but I *am*, constructively, criticizing. You could be playing ComSim matches right now that challenge you much more, but without being as frustrating as stuckages, door-opening battles, trial-and-error glitches, "Very High" restart counts, cutscene cues, framerate drops, etc. In it just for the competition and find multiplayer to have too much randomness (really just the respawns) to be a good basis? Then buzz off -- any given game really constitutes one of the dumbest things to compete in *for competition's sake*; it's way, way, *way* too specific for any sense of accomplishment to be particularly justified in an ultimate sense. You dedicate yourself to a game because it represents something about your way of life. So why not stop worrying about trying to best each other and just improve your skill while keeping things friendly? If you're not in it just for the competition, you are doing Goldeneye, Perfect Dark, and the TimeSplitters a significant disrespect by neglecting multiplayer -- there almost certainly would be no Perfect Dark or even a Free Radical if not for the selling power of Goldeneye's multiplayer. Let me say this in another way -- these games have great single player, but the single player is nothing compared to the mp. I would say that's why The Elite exists in the first place...as an attempt to create an indirect multiplayer. Now, just realize you can achieve this in a much more *coherent* (--ay, there's the rub) environment. On the same cartridge. "If you think about a weight training program, you add a little more weight, do a few more reps, etc. mp is much better for this type of experience than fastimes is...you have the difficulty levels of the sims, the # of sims, your handicap, all that can be tweaked to create gradation." It's like the difference between training on a figure-eight track, and one with a bizarre and extremely complex shape; in the long run, one just offers a more balanced experience than the other.

In closing, I apologize if I've offended any of you...this was certainly not my intention, since the whole point of spending this much time on a thoughtful essay in the first place is based on my considerable respect for this personable, remarkable group. I feel that if these ideas are given some thought, you will realize there is not only room for them within the objectives of the Elite, but likely a need for them as well.

Comment in here until tyranny asserts an iron fist. Visit www.angelfire.com/az3/grandexperiment and pub17.ezboard.com/bthegrandexperiment . Good-bye.....

"I'm a gay piece of crap that has nothing better to do with my life than post pointless crap that no one cares about on a message board filled with cool people that I wish I could be"

[SamSim]

And here's my reply:

Dude, I think you're trying too hard to ingratiate yourself.

Sure, solo missions are random and stuff, but they're pretty varied and going for speed times can keep anyone occupied for at least 10 days' play time. There's a different challenge on every level, a thousand different tricks to learn, and more to the point it's kept a lot of people occupied for a long time.

The reason why the Elite has been so popular is that we compete on a standardised playing field that is the same the world over. "Beat this mission on this difficulty in the fastest possible time." Scoring is the other important aspect. In solo missions, The game keeps score, even if you don't, so if you stumble across this site one day, ANYBODY with a copy of the game is already in there with a set of times.

Once you begin to step outside the specifications that the game lays down, there are just too many possibilities. Even going to the Challenges - "beat this challenge as fast as possible" - requires you to do a lot of scorekeeping yourself. Then you go to Karl's claimed record of the largest number of unanswered Ch30 points. Could you do that for every level? What about with more DarkSims? What about that fastest solo mission times without using a Falcon 2 at any time? Spinoffs such as the Fastest Deaths league, the Fastest Complete Run Through Agent, Enemy Rockets, Cheaters League... they never lasted long. Similarly, in CS there are no boundaries and no obvious goals. There are a hundred different options to tinker with, making for quintillions of possible different games.

Thus, competition on such a playing field, except by physically playing against human opponents, becomes ridiculous. With the solo missions (and Mario Kart) you're competing on the same level. But in CS - "I've killed a hundred DarkSims without dying in Fortress using all Laptop Guns" vs "I beat 8 DarkSims 50-0 at Hold The Briefcase in Grid" vs whatever else people come up with... there's no way to tell who's better without standardised settings, and as we all know there is no standardised multiplayer setting harder than 4P Ch30.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is that all a successful completion of a hard CS scenario represents is just a general level of skill. It's not an achievement which EVERYONE can relate to. It's not something you can go to your cartridge and look up your score and go "wow... a whole ten minutes faster than my time, he must be really good." In short, it's not something that is recognised the world over. It probably wouldn't wash at Twin Galaxies.

If and when people get sufficiently bored of solo missions that they want to play CS instead, they will come to you, possibly. But it's my belief that they are much more likely to move onto next-gen games, where new ground remains to be broken, where new tricks remain unseen.

[PDplum]

come = crap talk personified

[Smasher]

Quote:The nervous adrenalin rush of vying for a good run aside, trying to shave off seconds is boring!!! Trying to find the new glitch that will cut a few more otherwise-meaningless seconds off the run is boring!!! Living through the amount of random luck (boosts?) that is required for pretty much *any* given wr run at this point is, extremely, boring!!!

This is the heart of the matter.  You think it's boring, we think it's fun.  We simply have a difference of opinion, and I doubt anybody is going to change anyone else's mind.  You can argue all you want, and if you want to continue doing so that's your perogative, but for that simple reason I doubt you'll convince more than a couple people (who don't already agree with you) to switch to multiplayer.

I'm not trying to discourage you; I'm simply saying (in a friendly, not derogatory way) that you're probably wasting your time.

[StartsStrats]

Interesting, Smasher...good point, you think it's fun.  I think it's decently fun, too...I more or less agree with Sam's 10 days' play time estimate.  But I've spent more than 1000 hours with GE/PD multi by now, and I would continue to question whether the real interest in fastimes is gameplay-, or simply competition-, based.  Now, on with the debate:

~~SamSim~~

"Dude, I think you're trying too hard to ingratiate yourself."

Dude, I think you aren't quite clear on the meaning of the word 'ingratiate'; if anything this topic is likely to get me banned. ;-)


"The reason why the Elite has been so popular is that we compete on a standardised playing field that is the same the world over. "Beat this mission on this difficulty in the fastest possible time." Scoring is the other important aspect. In solo missions, The game keeps score, even if you don't, so if you stumble across this site one day, ANYBODY with a copy of the game is already in there with a set of times."

This makes very little sense; standardization is equally possible in PDCS and, what's more, I will continue to stress the *positive* aspects of removing such a rigid competitive basis.

"Once you begin to step outside the specifications that the game lays down, there are just too many possibilities."

This is largely my point...why would you want to limit yourself?  Confronting such a vast set of variables makes sure you stay in the most "nutritious" part of self-improvement.

"and as we all know there is no standardised multiplayer setting harder than 4P Ch30"

Pretty doubtful.  Moving on...

"Basically, what I'm trying to say is that all a successful completion of a hard CS scenario represents is just a general level of skill. It's not an achievement which EVERYONE can relate to."

"represents...a general level of skill"...hm, sounds good to me.  And of course people can relate to it -- if they're truly interested in improving their skill, rather than just competing.

SamSim/Smasher:

"where new tricks remain unseen...This is the heart of the matter. You think it's boring, we think it's fun."

Again, an interesting point, but I would love to hear anyone explain why they enjoy plumbing the esoteric depths of GE/PD's physics and AI engines.  In any case, I'm sure anyone who could even explain this would find analyzing CS matches at least as stimulating.

[StartsStrats]

Also, in the interest of saving time I would suggest that your rebuttals need to be rather well thought out to be effective -- What I've written in the first post of this topic alone addresses a sufficient variety of considerations to assure that.  If you don't bother with careful responses I have more than enough energy to indicate how pointless I think your comments are.

[..]

Oh no you didn't!  You didn't just insult Sam's intelligence... I'd suggest editing that out of your post before he sees it or you will get the pwning of your life.  He will mathmatically prove that you are gay and stuff...

[Dark0Perfection]

Nice post come.

StratSucker, or whatever your name is, when you first posted here I didn't hate you nor did I support what you are trying to do. Now I'm starting to get annoyed. You are starting to insult people and trying to act like you're smarted than Sam(not likely). The fact is, you are starting to get on our nerves and we just want you to go away. Try to fit that information into your tiny brain. WE DON'T WANT YOU HERE. We don't have to have a reason for liking solo, we just do. We all like multi too, but we compete on solo and play multi for fun. We are probably better than you at solo and multi by far. Playing remote mines and 'reading' people doesn't improve skill. You can't 'read' people like you say you do. We are good, you are annoying and stuff....

In conclusion, Karl thinks you're gay.

[cubentop]

The sole purpose of GE and PD is going for fast times, how can you say stuff against it. I would prefer solo to multi, i played PD solo about 17 hours, i prefer GE though i hardly play multiplayer. Sometimes i would play CS but the only meaningful and fulfilling thing is playing solo for fast times.

[StartsStrats]

I'll reiterate: "In the interest of saving time I would suggest that your rebuttals need to be rather well thought out to be effective -- What I've written in the first post of this topic alone addresses a sufficient variety of considerations to assure that. If you don't bother with careful responses I have more than enough energy to indicate how pointless I think your comments are."

I don't think the responses I've gotten since I originally posted that qualify.

Dark0Perfection:

"The fact is, you are starting to get on our nerves and we just want you to go away. Try to fit that information into your tiny brain. WE DON'T WANT YOU HERE. We don't have to have a reason for liking solo, we just do. We all like multi too, but we compete on solo and play multi for fun."

Kiss off.  What I'm discussing is lighthearted enough that only fools would allow it to get on their nerves.  People are continuing to show interest, whether you realize it or not, so I'll continue.  If I'm banned, so be it -- it's not like this is the Red Scare, so banning me would do a great job toward convincing me of Elite smallmindedness and thus largely defeat its own attempt at causing me frustration.  Oh, you compete on solo and play multi for fun...sorry, I thought you'd do both for fun.

cubentop:

"The sole purpose of GE and PD is going for fast times...the only meaningful and fulfilling thing is playing solo for fast times"

What the...!?!  Interesting hypothesis, but a claim as lofty as this requires a lot more supportive evidence than you bother to provide.  Anyone want to offer a *decent* argument?  Defend the honor of the Elite!

[SamSim]

Well, what would be the alternative? Playing for *fun*?  

Quote:why would you want to limit yourself?

So that you can compete directly with other people!

You say that the possibilities of CS are limitless. I say that this is a bad thing. You say that there is no reason why standardisation shouldn't be possible. I say that this is precisely the problem: that standardisation is "possible" as opposed to "preloaded into the game". Nobody would agree on a set of standards. Everyone would have to see YOUR site and agree with YOUR scenarios. And, of course, nobody would agree with you. Nobody here agrees, for starters.

63 levels are enough for us for now. When we get bored, don't call us, we'll call you.

(Incidentally. This is the Perfect Dark Elite forum and is intended for discussions directly related to the Perfect Dark Elite. This is the main reason folks are getting angry at you. There is a Combat Simulator forum - it's empty, but you're free to post there with impunity.)

[cubentop]

Dang, i must have missed the pwning from Sam, seeing as he edited the post . And i agree, 63 combined levels of going for fast times in both games competing with many others, it can never end, there are always going to be more WRs when people play more and get better, WR=excitement, there is never more excitement when seeing a new WR on the rankings, it fuels you to play more and thus get quicker and better times boosting the fun so do you catch my drift?

[StartsStrats]

Not bad, not bad at all...I think you'll find that my intention is not to convince you to quit fastimes, just to try something else out -- yes, there is a selfish aspect, I desire interaction with smart players!  I'm giving the fastimes thing a shot as one inroad to said interaction;  I would give more credence to your enthusiasm if I hadn't found the fastimes experience so monotonous, however.  I've given a lot of thought to multi, and thanks to the Elite a considerable amount to solo.  Leave it at this -- both deserve your attention.  I'd like to find people to discuss ComSim, true, but I'm also addressing the nature of fastimes; this topic is very relevant to the Elite as a whole, particularly now when interest seems surely to be waning.

Lastly, can you offer an argument that doesn't stem from the purely competitive aspect of fastimes? --

 "there are always going to be more WRs when people play more and get better, WR=excitement, there is never more excitement when seeing a new WR on the rankings, it fuels you to play more",

"why would you want to limit yourself?
So that you can compete directly with other people!"

Communion is usually a far more viable alternative than competition; can I get an 'Amen'?  Yes, I wanted to post in here again so that people would see -- so sue me.  If your arguments were better, I'd feel a lot more guilty about it, but since they're not, screw you!!!  Open your minds!!!  Do you think I approached the Elite saying, "hm, let's make these guys my enemies"?  Of course not.  But if you expect me to bow down and do homage or something, you can think again -- I'm contacting you as an equal.

"Kiss off. What I'm discussing is lighthearted enough that only fools would allow it to get on their nerves."

[Jimbo]

Um, the reason no one plays Combat Simulator is because it has nothing to do with a worldwide elite rank on the rankings page. I'm sure if you're Challenge times or whatever or something were actually ranked, then people would play.

[ChodhE]

I didn't read a single post you made, but you annoy me, gtfo.

[deletedprofile.u]

Starts(Gay)Strats

pwned

-Karl

[Pernicious-B]

That's where you're wrong Jimbo.  Octo used to run a challenge elite back in the day.  There were like 12 people in it, and all of us stopped playing around the same time when we realized that playing challenges for time was incredibly gay, and by gay I mean, based solely on luck.  
Also, Mr. Food ran a multiplayer league, I think it was somewhat successful, but it died pretty quickly anyway.  
That's why StartsStrats won't be able to succeed with anyone here.  You're 2 years too late.  The things you've talked about have already been done, and all the people who did them don't care about it anymore.  Besides that, there are only like 5 people who are actively playing for times now.  
Also, what Sam said is true, the limitations of having "only" 63 levels to compete on is good.  With limitless combinations of settings no one could ever be the champion of a CS league.  Without a good method of ranking people, there would be no sense of competition, and competition is exactly what the elite is about.

[deletedprofile.u]

Anyways.....

Let's be blunt. SS is trying to act intelligent but he's lost site of the fact that the topic of discussing is completely UNintelligent.

What it comes down do, what flavoured icecream do you like more? Vanilla or Chocolate? Personally I prefer vanilla. I'm sure you prefer chocolate because you are gay.

We like solo, you like multi. It would require someone fairly stupid to assume we haven't played multi before and assessed how much of it we want to play. If we wanted to discuss it we would be doing so, is it not obvious that we don't want to discuss it?

You have your taste we have ours, don't insult us. Oh wait, you're gay so that means you will insult us, you can't help it as it comes natural to you.

Either join our club and conform or we will change this place from 'The Elite' to 'No StartsStrats club'.

-Karl

[perifferol]

Hi everyone.  Quite a chatboard ya got here.  
Hey SS.  So you asked for feedback on your Game of the Week.  Well here's mine.  My biggest frustration in playing GOTW #2 was not a design element that you were responsible for.  It's the damn simulants.  
Four years (that's 4 YEARS) of devoted Counter-Strike playing have spoiled me to anything but human competition (preferably the 10 player+ variety).  I've had the opportunity at U-M to attend a lecture on shooter AI programming (given by someone from Valve).  Apparently, it's very simple; basically a decision is made between different subprograms, and then all other considerations are dropped.  This is evidenced in the way simulants proceed to the shield after spawning, even if you're there in the path with a gun (well maybe I am exaggerating a bit, but you understand what I mean).  Or in the simulants' disconcerting disregard for their own vulnerability while reloading.  Once, a DarkSim turned a corner to attack me while I was up on a ramp.  Despite needing to reload, he nevertheless continued up the ramp toward me as I unloaded my clip at point blank range into his shield and then health.  While some players may be interested in learning how to best exploit such gaps in the sim's program, for me this botsploitation is not as interesting as multiplay competition/cooperation (which I am "all about").
Ahem.  Then there's the resentment attendant to being shot to oblivion again and again by a sim that doesn't have to interface with the physical control device, but for all we know affixes the crosshair to your character's left eyebrow and "makes it so."  It's enough to elicit a low "this is bullshit," breathed just before the flicking "off" of the N64. (get it?)

But your suggestion about the Slow-Mo warrants further trial.  Certainly, it will play very differently, and I plan to post a stunning score for GOTW#2, Slow-Mo on.  In fact, I'm going to challenge anyone here to post a better score than me on those precisely defined settings.  I'm on a job hunt (I'm a writer in the D.C. area--any employers out there in the audience?), so the deadline will have to be the end of next month.  That's September 30, 11:59 PM, EST, to be precise.  

Why do this, if I don't like playing sims, you ask?  Well, let me answer by explaining something else: what's special about the Grand Experiment?  As long as we're philsophizing on what's fun about videogames, I will hypothesize that enjoyment of a multiplayer FPS stands on three legs: the gameplay, the quality of the competition you're up against, and sociocultural context.  Most people agree that PD & GE's multiplayer offer excellent gameplay.  Allow me to point out that indirect competition via the Grand Experiment is a unique opportunity, because it attempts to maximize the other two components of gaming fun.  SS's tireless efforts to generate interest in the forums have provided a social milieu...a very tense and exciting one.  Furthermore, as I contemplate this further, more infrastructure to foster indirect competition over ComSim results may establish the Grand Experiment as a tripedal BEAST.  That is to say, SS, if you were to post a permanent records board for each and every GOTW, competitive elites (and others) may take your challenges much more seriously.  Nevermind that you only have 2 people submitting results at first in these message boards; once people start seeing a permanent records list, they will want to find out if they can do better than player X.  As a Mr. Jim Barrett conjectured, rankings may help too.  Sure, it may be controversial how you determine that, but that's part of the fun: just give your complete rationale on the website and let the people judge if it's reasonable.  
I think SamSim is right to attribute the rise of the elite phenomenon to the fact that the specifications of the competition are right there in the game.  But since it's clear that you have the energy to host a ComSim competition league, take the next step: feature a WR page on your site for each GOTW, and I guarantee you there will be a flurry of activity because people will see that you're serious about those scenarios.  Maybe they should've seen that already?  (BTW everyone: there's a "save settings" feature on your ComSim menu!)  I think the sooner the better, because right now you have at least 10 hits a day on your site.
Just trying to help!  And now a shy smile

[Imperfect Clark]

Alright, please read this.  I was alerted to come read this topic and have meaningful contributions to it.  StartStrats, you ought to read this through.

Firstly, StartStrats is my friend, more or less.  I started talking to him on AIM last summer, as he was a very motivated prospective gamer.  His talent was obvious, and he was clearly an intelligent kidI respected him.  Accordingly, I came to this topic with the mindset that I would be defending him.  I read every word written here, and dont feel quite the same.  But I do still intend to defend him on a few accounts.

So far, everyone's just kinda touched on the reasons that your presentation is a bit absurd to us.  Few have really gone into detail because everyone here all kinda knows why we do this and doesn't feel obligated to spell it out.  I will try to, because you seem to really see things differently than those of us here.

You argument is incredible crisp and well written, but its content is a bit incendiary at parts, considering your audience.  Weve grown tired of people complaining about the monotony of single player.  Despite your strong attitude of single player is one-dimensional and boring, you guys are absurd for pushing it so far, I still garnered respect for your post.  However, the following bothered me:

Quote:Also, in the interest of saving time I would suggest that your rebuttals need to be rather well thought out to be effective -- What I've written in the first post of this topic alone addresses a sufficient variety of considerations to assure that. If you don't bother with careful responses I have more than enough energy to indicate how pointless I think your comments are.

You went as far to post it again, which was unnecessarily arrogant, man.  I thought Sam remained very respectful of you in his posts, and his rebuttal was pretty solid, though simplehe did not at all deserve to be insulted.  He remained pretty cool despite that.  Im going to try to offer my own rebuttal, though at this point I dont think you respect any opinion other than your ownwhich I regret to admit.

Sam touched on a key point when he made mention of Twin Galaxies, the original scorekeeper for those classic arcade games.  Back in the 1980s getting an arcade record was enough to get national mentionseriously.  Everyone played Pac-Man and whatnot, so the idea of holding a video game world record was as real as holding any other major world record  You became angry with Sam and others for droning on about competition and WRs but why did you just pass that off?  Why did you insist that there needs to be another argument?  We were all drawn here for those two reasons!  (competition, world records)  Having a record in the Elite is like having a classic arcade game recordthat is how many of us felt.  This is an incredible accomplishment to us, something that stays with us for days, sometimes weeks after achieving.  Its human nature to want to be the best at things, and thats what has brought so many hereand it is what keeps us here

YES, YOURE RIGHTsolo is boring, monotonous, somewhat absurd, and indirectly disrespectful to the makers.  Whether were warping doors, tricking guards, manipulating frame rates, or taking advantage of an overlook in the world of vector mathematics (strafing), were doing something that is beyond the intentions of the makers (in pursuit of registering the fastest time).  Notewe dont care.  Yes, it disheartens us when new glitches show up, but this is the nature of competitionI contend that it could be reduced to simple human nature (whatever that is, anyway).  We take what we can get, and we dont care how we get it.  We are self-serving beings, and if theres any conceivable means to our ends, well ceaselessly pursue it.  No?  I played Surface 1 10 hours straight, for fun?  No.  To help others?  No.  I did it to engender a sense of superiority over other people.  I did it to satisfy myself.  And trust me, I succeeded.  There is one thing that I do not believe you can rebut, and that is the euphoric sense of accomplishment that one can feel after achieving a WR or equally lofty goal in single player.  I have run around the house shouting HOLY FUCKING @#%$ a few timesI felt like I was God himself after getting Statue 2:26.  I didnt have to tell anybody anything except 2:26 and they immediately comprehended what I had achieved.  And that was incredibly rewardingit is why we do this.

So as we sit there, stewing in our rooms, alone, late in the night..*press start, abort, yes, restart*.we are content at heart because we know what lies ahead, whether it be that run, or the next, or the 1500ththe thrill of accomplishment is what keeps us coming, not the fun.  But seriously, if it wasnt fun when we started years ago, we wouldnt waste our time with it, obviously.  Its only the current strat exhaustion that can make this a tiring practice.

I think you show too much disrespect for the single player in terms of its role in GoldenEyes success.  Before MP became wildly popular, it was SP that was selling games.  GEs single player is brilliantly integrated with the movie, and the guys at Rare did a great job on creating truly enjoyable missions.  If not for the popularity of GEs solo, GEs MP would never have come to popularity.  Think about it.  For all I know Turok multi is better than sex, but I dont even know if Turok multi exists because the solo game is so disenchanting.  But anyway, this argument is somewhat adjacent to the debate at hand.  I merely raise it as part of my instinct to defend single player.  I will reiterate my confession that at this point, its not about fun.  I think you just need to accept that we are all here for different reasons than your own.  Some just want to be the best.  Some enjoy the competition, plus just playing the game.  Some just clog the boards with their mindless drivel.  Whatever it is, the initiative should respected.  Likewise, I respect your CS vision.

Let me just soothe you by summarizing your argument, to prove that at least one person here understands youyou believe that you can offer something that not only is challenging to the Elites finest, but is FUN to playthat is truly stimulating and that develops skill.  I think this is where Sams argument comes in; you passed it off way too fast.  There is much greater appeal in achieving scores/times on standardized settings.  Why?  For one, we dont care about advancing our skillsthat takes care of itself anyway.  In the CS competition you envision, we keep improving so that we can...perform better in the CS competition?  Seems a little circularultimately getting better at this game isnt going to gain us anything useful in the real world.  This is where Sams argument comes into play.  As he tried to emphasize, we all believe that theres some inherent importance to having the world record on Caverns 00 agent, for example.  In a way, this has importance in the real world, because a world record is a WORLD RECORD.  And yes, we can invent meaningless @#%$ to achieve our own world records, but millions have played Dam agent (for example) and its safe to say 0:53 is the best.  Most will agree that this is a truly meaningful accomplishment, worth feeling very happy about.  In the CS Elite you describe, competition would consist solely of gamers trying to merely outpace other talented gamers on a challenge that proves itself fun to play.  However, I think achieving this mere sense of superiority lacks the satisfaction taken from the universality of solos standardized missionsno matter how fun these challenges may be to play.  Challenge 30 does well to support this point.  To me, challenge 30 was just fun to play, win or lose.  I enjoyed the settings, it really got my juices flowing and made me a better player.  But in the end, my challenge 30 exploits have diminished in meaning to me.  That Twin Galaxies idea comes backchallenge 30 could not make their pages.  My accomplishments were limited to those who cared enough to read about them.  A WR in single player seems to existalmost independent of the player.  Nothing can change the fact that its a *meaningful* record and nothing can change the vindicating emotions it instills.

Even if we dont fully understand our motives for playing, it doesnt matter.  Its far beyond anyones carefully constructed arguments intended to open our eyes.  We are all motivated by similar reasons, and although many people here originally didnt give your ideas proper acknowledgement, I think by now the Elite has spoken.  You came in here with a sense that if I explain my opinion clearly enough, they will at least agree that its right in principle.  I think you just forgot that we like to be able to claim I have a world record on GoldenEye, for example.  No matter how fun other settings may have proven, it could never match the enduring sense of accomplishment that these records sustain in us.  I understand that arguing that the depth of the competition in the PDE and GEE is why we prefer itI realize your argument is in principle.  So I will offer you this muchif the original standardized missions set out on either of these games was like one of the CS settings you have so thoughtfully invented, perhaps the Elite would be more active and more positive, in general.  Just remember that the Elite wasnt always this rigid.  That is only the product of years of passionate gamers, vying for the title of #1.  Four years ago, the strats in GE werent widely known, nor was anyone so certain they were unbeatable.  If only we could all go back to that time period, when getting records was a test of our own strategizingthen people wouldnt complain about monotony.  So, Ill finish with thisconsider if hundreds of people spent years applying themselves to your CS challenges.  Theyd be equally exhaustedthe fun would be gone.  I dont care how inventive the settings, theyd get old as people pushed the limits.  

Im sorry for being longwinded.   Hopefully Ive satisfied your need for a thought-provoking rebuttal.  Please remember that when you try to undermine our motivations, youre only insulting us, not enlightening us.  We like our world of competing for Twin Galaxies certifiable World Records, and that will always keep us coming.  As for you, Im not sure what it is youre searching forI can tell you want something, some sort of ultimate competition.  Something you could compete for the title of being the best in.   Your frustration is probably attributed to the fact that, here in the Elite, no one respects your abilities here unless youve got the solo times to back them.  Im not sure what you expected.  Im not quite convinced that your highest motivation here is any more valorous than that of everyone else herethe pursuit of superiority (and ultimately, power).   I think that by now, all you really want here is respect, whether it be for your abilities or for you vision in CS.  In being denied that, youve grown spiteful and condescending.  In a way, I feel like I should apologize.  I wish everyone here could get proper acknowledge for their skills, but the Elite was built on solo times, and from that one must build their reputation.  No one here will ever know how good you are.  Perhaps you are the best.  Just dont take it out on us for not jumping through hoops to give you the opportunity to prove it.

And here's a picture of a hamster, intended to confuse people who simply scanned at the awesome size of my post without reading.  Perhaps they'll read it to figure out why it's here:

[Imperfect Clark]

Very nice post, perifferol.  Not surprising to see you're in the business of journalism (or soon to be).  I usually ignore posts from strangers, especially long ones, but yours was interesting to read.  Your "tripod" theory does well to simplify the preceding 2000-word essay.  Your advice for SS is good; I realized this when I felt my heart rate increase when you said "I challenge anyone to beat my score".  That's exactly what a leaderboard accomplishes.  It's the competition the drives us all....

And now, an irrelevent emoticon..

[genisics]

yeah... ban stratsdude!

ermm... yeah i actually read dereks whole post.. i kinda skimmed through a few of the others.. I think the main problem with strats is his blatant arrogance of the fact that this is a solo mission community... it's like.. a chick trying to compete against the men in the olympics... sure they both compete in the same sport.. but they are 2 different categories and it just doesn't work out.

[Suicide-Eagle]

Yes.  The feeling of getting an amazing time/score is something else.  On Monkey Ball when I finally got the perfect 9999 play point run I almost felt like stripping and running through the streets shouting Eureka!!  That is by far my biggest gaming acheivement.

With CS you can build your skill and all that but in solo you get real numbers for your skill.  And that's what's been said.  It is a real record with real numbers in the real world.  Having skill in CS is only related to CS.  So you can say "I hold xx world records" but you can't say something similar about CS.
And it's random so it sucks.  In a similar way that the arcade scores on TS2 suck because they're basically multiplayer matches.

Slightly off rail here.  My parents and other people often say things like..."ehhhh all you do all day is play games for no reason.  Just absorbed in your little world with nobody else in it" .  I have to set them straight by saying that the reason I play games is because of things in the real world.  People who just play for the hell of it are in their own little world and what they're doing only affects them.  But when we play games for competition we know that there are a load of people online who are affected by our scores and our playing is very mutch integrated into what we do in the world.  As is doing things like go to school/work and watching TV.  But nobody moans at us for doing them.

Funny coincidence.  Somebody I know from running club just brought something round in the middle of typing that last paragraph.  He said "when you decide you're good at sprinting come down to the club again".  Then he said "you should get off the computers as they waste a lot of time and you get no result, unlike running where you get times and compete with real people".  I just pointed at him and said "I'm not even going to go into it".  Of course we get real times and compete with real people.  Just like runners or anybody that competes in any other sport.  Crazy world eh.

[Wouter Jansen]

not to mention with running you are limited to your own body, going for fast times most important needs are your hands, a good set of brains, and then a connection between the 2. nothing easily keeps you from playing, but there are many reasons why one could not run even if they wanted to.
say like, if someone would be put in the best body possible for achievements in the running department, they could get better times and such than when they just have "some" body. going for fast times doesn't need a spectalur crazy body at all, just need 2 hands (preferable) and you need to know all the stuff that goes with it. nothing more.
this means, comparisons are much more accurate.

[PDplum]

Quote:need 2 hands (preferable)

there was a one handed elite, it kinda failed and times were like 114 dam

[JugadorJ3]

I think it boils down to the fact that we don't care for what you have to say. So write a book, or just say it at another forum. Leave us to ourselves.

[SamSim]

Derek's post = pwnership. And stop referring to that guy as SS. SS means me!

[Matthijsdadutchman]

I have been chatting with this fellow, he's a nice guy and one thing has become pretty clear to me: he's obsessed by multi.

Multi and Solo are just two different world, try to comprehend that. Derek's post exactly pointed out what I had in mind. What drives us, is mainly what Derek stated already: We are looking for improvement, trying to get better. We know what lies ahead of us, we know how random it can be. It's either a grenade you need to get, a fast bot, the flight recorder being in the right place, lab clothes, Doak standing around the corner, and so, and so on. It's just a matter of when everything falls together, like a puzzle, and then you know you achieved your goal. Being happy, and satisfied as you see your new record popping up. That last thing gives a certain thrill. Sharing this all with other Elitist, helping each other out, stimulating new people around here, developping new strats, and of course COMPETITION. There's absolutely nothing better than rivalling with good online buddies, trying to get the best out of each other, getting some fame on the rankings, seeing the other's person reaction after beating his time by one second: you little @#%# bitch. Those are the best moments and that's what it's all about.

I respect your enthusiasm and your ideas towards PD/GE multiplayer, but you really need to accept this isn't the right place to convince us multi being better than solo. We are competing for SOLO MISSIONS, it's as simple as that. And starting to insult Sam is just another thing, it's way out of proportions. That seriously wasn't necessarily at all, you really should have toned down there.

The fact we acknowledge your efforts into multiplayer is represented by a link on the Elite's home, the-elite.net. Otherwise, if we wouldn't be supporting your page, we wouldn't have linked you up there. So, you don't have much to complain about really. Work out your new multi strategies on your page, and I am sure people will read it.

I am sure you will have your reponse ready, and you will write another one of these bible chapters (length-wise), but please stop it. Your vision is ambivalent comparing to ours. The atmosphere around here will only worsen as most here get a bit annoyed. So please, don't be stubborn, accept that you are surrounded by solo competitors who don't share the same vision towards single player as you do. Instead of wasting your time here, work on some new multi strategies, okay?

-Matthijs

[StartsStrats]

Awesome!  They like me, they really really like me!  
It seems like I could get banned.  Nevertheless:

PernB--

"You're 2 years too late. The things you've talked about have already been done, and all the people who did them don't care about it anymore. Besides that, there are only like 5 people who are actively playing for times now."

Maybe you're right, but I've been shooting my mouth off anyway because I think it is quite likely that some of you just haven't considered the possibilities -- for example, PD advanced setup can be tricky at first, you actually have to put some thought into every match you design and that was initially a turn-off even for me.  For example, when I joined Pdark.com they seemed to have no interest in my mp ruminations -- this was before the game even came out, so presumably I wasn't "too late" then.  Sometimes people just don't give things a chance because they don't know to bother -- not saying that's all of you, but I will go on to wonder why I still haven't heard anything except the "argument from competition" to back up dedication to fastimes.  So there are only 5 people actively playing?  That's part of why I'm here -- to motivate the people who are inactive, semi-active, and active alike.  Keep reading.

"Without a good method of ranking people, there would be no sense of competition, and competition is exactly what the elite is about."

Ok, but again you'll have to excuse me if I look here for people interested in the CS project -- I'm scouting other boards too, but as you can imagine they tend to be less...brainy.

Karl--

"Let's be blunt. SS is trying to act intelligent but he's lost site of the fact that the topic of discussing is completely UNintelligent...Either join our club and conform or..."

The great thing about intelligence is that you can't fake it, for long.  Moving on...

periff--

I like your discussion and way to go with the challenge, hopefully some more people will see (though Derek could very well be enough to make it interesting).  Yeah, absolutely, the sims can be really goofy -- head-to-head blows solo comsim away.  But this really isn't an argument against it; Solo Missions rely on ai as well, and Sims can be very engaging and supremely challenging if you find the right match.  Counter-strike is an ironic example -- you're playing against humans, but in many ways they might as well be sims, try capture the case against DarkSims with no radar and maybe falcon,k7,sniper rifle, grenade and the experience will show many interesting parallels to cstrike.  Counter-strike just doesn't have the tactical moxie -- I've mentioned before that, even on the clan level, teams usually run the same tactic over and over again.  In any case this is apples and oranges, splitscreen and online are different and if i still had highspeed internet i'd probably be playing my fair share of cstrike.

"Then there's the resentment attendant to being shot to oblivion again and again by a sim that doesn't have to interface with the physical control device, but for all we know affixes the crosshair to your character's left eyebrow and "makes it so." It's enough to elicit a low "this is bullshit," breathed just before the flicking "off" of the N64. (get it?)"

lol yeah, i get it -- turn the sim difficulties down then!  turn your handicap up! turn on jo shield!  See, you can always pull the plug on the whole relentless competition thing and just enjoy yourself -- you'll still be developing and you don't have to be aggravated.  the flexibility of comsim assures that you can stay right at that crucial threshold between challenge and frustration, and that there are always more skills to be gained.

"That is to say, SS, if you were to post a permanent records board for each and every GOTW, competitive elites (and others) may take your challenges much more seriously....take the next step: feature a WR page on your site for each GOTW, and I guarantee you there will be a flurry of activity because people will see that you're serious about those scenarios."

Actually I've already done this via ezboard:

pub17.ezboard.com/bthegrandexperiment

there's a topic for each GOTW -- everyone feel free.  don't forget to read the welcome topic.

Derek--

first let me just say that i do feel bad about some of the things i've said about fastimes; more than anything i think what you've done is remarkable and i would've loved to be there at the beginning, but i have to address issues like boredom factor -- more than a few people in here have indicated how intrinsically boring fastimes has become though, and still no one has made an argument for anything other than competitive basis.  Competition can be pursued to a fault, you know...keep reading.

"You went as far to post it again, which was unnecessarily arrogant, man."

I value your opinion very much DC, but I think you're mistaken here -- what i find unnecessarily arrogant are the people who make *purely* incendiary posts with no organization or merit, and i'm trying to get them to feel silly about being so junkmail.  When I do get a careful response it addresses one or two of my points *at best*, and anyone familiar with semantics can see that my ideas are a little more interrelated than that.  I posted that caveat the first time and the next several responses were junkmail, so I posted it again because they probably weren't even reading.  I know everyone here is smart enough and dedicated enough to offer their, well though-out, fair say -- I'm trying to get them to do just that, man (sorry, i just dislike insults that are suffixed with ", man.").

"I thought Sam remained very respectful of you in his posts, and his rebuttal was pretty solid, though simplehe did not at all deserve to be insulted."

You mustn't have read his post.  He calls it "and now the translation", an insult to people like you and I who appreciate the depth and texture of language.  I like the "Solo missions suck and are random. [I happen to agree with this.]" part, though.  All I do in response is to address specific things that he says; I mention his misuse of the word ingratiate primarily as a self-deprecating measure -- I suggest that I may be banned.  The Catch-22 of this simple argumentative approach of actually responding to my opponents' specific points is that it is by nature entirely respectful.

"...though at this point I dont think you respect any opinion other than your ownwhich I regret to admit."

This is rhetoric, first of all, because of the juxtaposition of an insult to me with your own personal regret -- spectators, don't be fooled! ;-)  Second, what makes you think this?  Why am I here in the first place if not out of respect and fascination with the group.  *You*'ve said meaner things about them than I have...I tried to get the ball rolling with fastimes when I first found the-elite.net, but had significant issues with it, which I have gone to great lengths to explain.  I'm not condemning, I'm constructively criticizing.  I think what's been accomplished is truly groundbreaking, and the skill you've collectively acquired is utterly admirable.  As the strats continue to grow stale, though, and as the list of active members dwindles, is everyone going to just quit PD altogether?  It's still the greatest game of all time!  Transition (take all the time you want) to Combat Simulator and you can continue to discover and develop new skills, new strats, new tricks, continue to enjoy community and challenge yourself, and you get to keep playing a game that is, play-wise, more "wholesome" than 99% of the games out there.

"Back in the 1980s getting an arcade record was enough to get national mentionseriously. Everyone played Pac-Man and whatnot, so the idea of holding a video game world record was as real as holding any other major world record"

This line of reasoning is bogus.  Insofar as being the best in some given activity constitutes realness (perfectly dubitable), still you have to consider who's competing: I'm going to have a contest right now to see who can be me...whaddya know, I won, with a world record performance to boot.  In my opinion, competition is better used as a means of self-improvement -- in fact, I think you agree with me on this.  I'm not like my parents -- I in no way think playing videogames is a waste of time.  But competition for competition's sake may very well be -- may very well be the *only* waste of time, actually.

Maybe you didn't read the last topic through (this is part of why I want people to be more conscientious about their replies) but I've explained how competition is really just as viable in ComSim -- yes, there are respawn considerations, but they aren't as big of a problem as some have suggested, and you can just play around with Capture the Case games (wherein respawns are far less random, are barely random at all) if you want that rigid basis.

"YES, YOURE RIGHTsolo is boring, monotonous, somewhat absurd, and indirectly disrespectful to the makers...Yes, it disheartens us when new glitches show up, but this is the nature of competition"

You may want to give this relentless competition thing another look; you've just indicated that the activity itself isn't intrinsically enjoyable to you -- new glitches are met with groans?  Probably because they shave off "otherwise-meaningless seconds".

"There is one thing that I do not believe you can rebut, and that is the euphoric sense of accomplishment that one can feel after achieving a WR or equally lofty goal in single player. I have run around the house shouting HOLY @#%$ @#%$ a few times."

Awesome, great stuff.  I ran through the house too when I earned the Invincibility cheat; great great gaming.  But Head-to-head multiplayer against good competition will have your heart pounding too (oh boy will it...when a loss you won't be able to cope with is on the line?), and I've explained how you can go for this euphoria via indirect competition in ComSim just as easily, only now the slate is wiped clean -- people who never got a chance to introduce the world to a great strat might get that chance, people who get tired of refining a given match can register their disapproval by moving on to a new one.

"But seriously, if it wasnt fun when we started years ago, we wouldnt waste our time with it, obviously. Its only the current strat exhaustion that can make this a tiring practice."

Right, I'm playing that out with my personal fastimes experience right now.  I'm not consulting strats, just taking the level at face value, giving some attention to event orchestration, getting a good run where I don't slow down if it's not necessary, and once I've done this the fun is pretty much through for me.  My mind wanders back to ComSim, where *I* decide what skills I'll hone.

"I think you show too much disrespect for the single player in terms of its role in GoldenEyes success. Before MP became wildly popular, it was SP that was selling games. GEs single player is brilliantly integrated with the movie, and the guys at Rare did a great job on creating truly enjoyable missions. If not for the popularity of GEs solo, GEs MP would never have come to popularity."

No way dawg.  I feel that GE has two of the greatest games of all time on one cartridge: Its Solo, and its MP.  But MP is quite clearly responsible for GE's legendary status -- this game used to get around like Grand Theft Auto, and not because of Solo.  Search through the internet backlogs for any given university and you could very well find mention of dorm or campus tournaments (Kansas State has apparently had *several*).

"Think about it. For all I know Turok multi is better than sex, but I dont even know if Turok multi exists because the solo game is so disenchanting."

Yes it exists, yes it sucks.

"I will reiterate my confession that at this point, its not about fun. I think you just need to accept that we are all here for different reasons than your own."

If it's not about fun for anyone else, I'm outta here; you can be sure of that.  But again, I doubt this is really true -- some of you just have more fun competing than you realize.  I'll say it again: ComSim competition is perfectly possible.  It's also perfectly impossible, in the sense that no one can claim ultimate superiority on the macro level, only on the level of individual matches -- this is a *good* thing!  "No more rich people, no more poor people."  

You also get the added benefit of coherence -- playing ComSim is going to improve your ability in lots of other games as well, particularly FPS's, and you can have the ultimate fun of super-advanced head-to-head multiplayer when you have a buddy around.  Playing Solo just isn't as well-rounded.

"In the CS competition you envision, we keep improving so that we can...perform better in the CS competition? Seems a little circularultimately getting better at this game isnt going to gain us anything useful in the real world. "

Wait a minute, you're trying to foist your own argument onto *me*?  Pure hypocrisy.  I *never* said CS competition was to be its own end.

"However, I think achieving this mere sense of superiority lacks the satisfaction taken from the universality of solos standardized missions"

Uh-uh.  Don't try to argue for the universality of the fastimes endeavor.  The Elite is a sub-sub-sub-sub-subculture.  That's part of the reason I figured my ideas would be greeted with more interest.  Some people have made this game so much a part of their lives that they think I'm trying to create some kind of rift -- we're playing the same game, guys.  I'm still flirting with fastimes, and now people have started toying with Game of the Week.  This constitutes a harmony.

"Im sorry for being longwinded. Hopefully Ive satisfied your need for a thought-provoking rebuttal."
 
Indeed you have, bro.  My thanks. U R a super-classy guy.  No sarcasm is intended.

"Please remember that when you try to undermine our motivations, youre only insulting us, not enlightening us. "

Right, right.  Hey, I'm doing my best; please understand, though, that I can't just roll over and die regarding this matter -- I've been looking for great GE/PD players for five years, and when I found the Elite I figured my trek was at an end.  Instead, it became like a cruel joke -- so close yet so far away.  I can't dedicate myself to fastimes as they exist now; it's too far from what I enjoy about these games in the first place.  If you really want to know what I think about the "we're not in it for the fun" argument, I think it's laughably, pitifully ironic.  I remember going for the Statue cheat and saying "yuck, this has become Mario Kart."  I love Mario Kart, but if I want to play Mario Kart I'll just play Mario Kart.  Meanwhile, I know there are people here who can get into what I'm doing with CS -- if sniffing them out requires me to speak my mind, so be it.  You don't have a responsibility to me to consider what I'm saying, but you *do* have a responsibility, to yourselves, to keep an open mind.

"As for you, Im not sure what it is youre searching forI can tell you want something, some sort of ultimate competition. Something you could compete for the title of being the best in."

You're projecting (in the psychological sense).  I'm not looking for this at all.  I'm just looking to talk strats!  

"Im not quite convinced that your highest motivation here is any more valorous than that of everyone else herethe pursuit of superiority (and ultimately, power)."

Projecting.  These endeavors are far, far too lighthearted to justify senses of superiority *or* power.  I'm not really interested in contact with anyone who can't realize this.

genisics--

"I think the main problem with strats is his blatant arrogance of the fact that this is a solo mission community..."

A solo mission community that has seen its heyday.  I'm trying to keep the energy alive -- videogames are the best, and PD is the best among those.  Sorry if I keep stepping on toes, but I honestly *do* intend to undermine your motivations if they're purely competition-based:

Bart: You make me sick, Homer. You're the one who told me I could do anything if I just put my mind to it!
Homer: Well, now that you're a little bit older, I can tell you that's a crock! No matter how good you are at something, there's always about a million people better than you.
Bart: Gotcha. can't win, don't try.

A hilarious joke to be sure, but I bring it up because competition tends to degrade the losers and idealize the winners -- these distortions are not necessary and can often be detrimental to *all* those involved.  I think anyone who looks into his heart will see that this is true.

Suicide Eagle--

"With CS you can build your skill and all that but in solo you get real numbers for your skill. "

Actually, I think the truth is that in solo, you get real skill for the numbers!  i.e. time is used as the measuring stick for everything.  Unfortunately, this ensures that all skills are pursued in an imbalanced fashion -- always with regard to the timer, ticking away...

[Wouter Jansen]

"The great thing about intelligence is that you can't fake it, for long."

I think it's fun though how there's all information in computers and they do alot of stuff and "know" stuff while they aren't even alive.

"no one has made an argument for anything other than competitive basis."

so you just skipped Derek's post about that we just want to be the best at something? I want to be the best, I don't care about the competition much actually. I want to do the best I can, no matter if other people are close to my times or not.
I think Derek even made more points not based on competition (solely), not sure since it's so much of a read and I'm not going to re-read it all  but I have read all these posts and I'm sure there were more reasons, you should have picked them up.

By the way, do you like insults in general, fag? (I don't mean that suffix, just testing to see if you actually care about being insulted, or if it was just another "argument just so you could say something back") so don't take that personal.

um and yeah, how come you have to insult us foreigners? expecting us to know all those hard words you use, how can one really join the debate? it's not english class, I'm Dutch, I can argue just as much as you can, but if you speak spanish I won't join the fun.

"*You*'ve said meaner things about them than I have"

You sound like my brother. Everytime someone says something to you you just bounce the ball back by saying exactly the same about the person who was saying it to you, but then in a way that he does it more than yourself. That is a pathetic way of arguing, sorry guy. I have heard that often enough here from my bro that I know that it exactly shows how bad you are in giving a good counter argument.


You know what a waste of time is? nothing is! since there's infinite time, how can it be wasted!? And wasting time of your life (which is - arguably - limited) doesn't matter either, since one day you'll die and NOTHING matters WHATSOEVER! mwahahaha who cares noone can care when he's dead.

"we're playing the same game, guys"

you keep saying that. so what? there are 2 totally different worlds inside this "same" game and you are talking about the other than we are. it's like comparing a certain cardgame to another totally irrelevant cardgame, but they must be the same, since they are both cardgames? the setup of both things are totally different and when a game's setup is different to another game's it can't be the same game (duh).

one just likes the feeling of being really fast.. like when one in real would be racing or running..

the other rather likes killing other people.. like when there would be a war.. never peaceful! ever seen a war where everyone was friends?

ever thought of the following? :
when you play multi alot, and are really working towards such a good level and like you are really good.. and you want to play with a FRIEND, not just some guy you just know since he's supposed to be good aswell, since to me, playing with a friend would be more fun, but whatd'ya know? The guy stinks. Since you are so damn good, you can never have a fun match since the other could never get you. It won't be fun for both sides. I know since I've tried playing against a few of my friends. Well, with my little knowledge about multi and how much I suck there - I liked it more than I would when I were good. You don't have to do fancy stuff and have to be stressed all the time about him possibly killing you any second, just a relax play and just have a fun shootout which last some time. And laugh at each others stupid mistakes, it won't get any better. But if you perfect your multi play one would more likely be insulted by a mistake. When it should be fun.
But what if you're going against other good players? Once you only keep winning, it gets normal. It will become like eating, it's your nature. It won't be special fun anymore. since you do it like every damn try! I would want something I have to look forwards to, not something I could be doing at any time given.
Something that NEEDS time to accomplish and therefor is worth the time invested! but once done accomplishing, it should be needing a new set of time to accomplish again and not just be "your nature".

"so close yet so far away."

that's what you often can and will feel when you're going for a certain time (I should know, yeah =P).
This discussion here is what you're going through to accomplish your certain goal, getting us aware of the pd multi world. You kind of experience with this what some of us do when going for times.

"we're not in it for the fun"

are you saying that "fun" is your life's first priority? seems like that would come to an end pretty fast.

"Homer: Well, now that you're a little bit older, I can tell you that's a crock! No matter how good you are at something, there's always about a million people better than you."

anyone with common sense knows that's utter nonsense. SOMEONE has to be the best, since there can't ALWAYS be a million people better.. there's always a best. It's what we call Perfection. Also, humans are never perfect. so it's all hypocritical.

I think that the main thing we strafe for is consistency, since that's probably the most important thing needed when going for fast times.


Last thing on my mind:
You're trying to get us into pd multi.. but since most of us have certain lifestyles and like going for fast times it already takes up that much time there's hardly any time left to do the multi ASWELL. Especially when you would want to get really good there aswell and improve your skills there ASWELL (which you were already doing in solo anyway). If you would have considered time (some of us can sometimes only play an hour a week, if they're lucky!) then you would have known that you are actually trying us to stop going for fast times, since you can't be doing everything with your time. One at a time, so just let us be happy with our solo playing, and when our interest for that dies, than we might get interested in multi, but not 2 things at a time. There's just no way.

dunno if I forgot anything but like.. would I care?

[Smasher]

Sorry, but
WE
ARE
NOT
INTERESTED

[StartsStrats]

Man, Wouter is quite a fascinating fellow.  But something about his perspective on things seems somewhat...idiosyncratic?  I'm just going to leave that one alone for now, I think he's an amazing guy.  Smasher's comment is obviously not worth responding to.

[perifferol]

Excuse me, but Counterstrike players are nothing like sims.  GRRRRR!  Counterstrike doesn't have the tactical moxie?!?  Buh buh, buh.........buh buh, buh bullsh!t.  Sorry but it seems these bewildering accusations have brought back my old stutter.  Still, I'm gonna uh, uh, uh, own everyone on GOTW#2 slowmo.  BEEOTCHIZ   I am too funny.

[StartsStrats]

yeah, you're right, they really aren't for the most part, human players do much more hilarious and/or deadly stuff.  but i insist that there will be some interesting parallels, particularly with what's required of you personally.

[Smasher]

Sorry about that, but you didn't seem to understand it when we put it in small text, so I figured bigger text wouldn't hurt.  Frankly, I'm offended by your snobbish attitude (towards everyone, not just me), and you've lost the respect I originally had for you.

You've proposed an idea to us, and anyone who might be interested has doubtless already seen this topic, and would be able to follow through on it.  The majority of us, however, have indicated that we're not interested.  If you're as intelligent as your vocabulary suggests you are, you should be able to figure out that your time would be better spent convincing people somewhere else to join your group.  The fact that you're still here suggests to me that you are in fact a troll, who is annoying us simply for the pleasure of it.

If I'm wrong, then I would like to ask you to either join us in striving for better single player times, which is the purpose of the Elite, or to carry on advertising your idea somewhere else, to people who are more receptive to it.

[Imperfect Clark]

Well, Strats, I know you love language and are fascinated with its use, so why would you go through and weed out pieces of my post and criticize them literally, instead of trying to look at my arguments as a whole?  More importantly, why did you choose only to acknowledge the circumstantial comments that bothered you for various reasons, instead of trying to appease me by admitting some ideas and phrases presented valid arguments?  The reason these topics don't die is that one by one we come here, read through, assemble a cache of things that annoy/offend us, then just contribute more irritated, combative posts.  We're getting nowhere.  To avoid hypocrisy (*again*, apparently), I will take a moment to extend a genuine "you're right" regarding the SamSim's initially summary of your post.  It was rude, however, I think it was strangely practical...as you have surely seen, your audience isn't always terribly patient or mature, so Sam's summary may've intrigued people to read your postpeople that may've just scrolled down to post that "no one cares, go away."  But, to say that Sam was aiming to do nothing but help your ideas thrive would bedare I saybogus?  Yes, its rude to think you can take someones thoughtful literary presentation and trim it down to (biased) paragraph summation.

Quote:This is rhetoric, first of all, because of the juxtaposition of an insult to me with your own personal regret -- spectators, don't be fooled! ;-)

Thats just pretentious and rude, the winks not saving it, I really dont feel like sugarcoating it.  Its just plainly offensive to be told that I was propagandizing my post in some passive aggressive quest to remain likeable.  My quest to control the favor of the Elite has been long since completed. (Lets see if this goes unnoticed, hehe..)

Hey speaking of hypocrisy, you took my suffixation of man to a certain sentence as being especially offensive?  Firstly, that was just an attempt to magnify the sincerity of the remark.  Amazingly, you went on to call me dawg (later in your dissection of my essay) which is overtly belittling, no?  Cmon

I really thought that my post would clarify one of the strongest motives that keeps us playing solo, but you do not appear at all pacified.  You thought my comparison of GE records to a Pac-Man record was ridiculous, then went on to call our community a sub-sub-sub-sub-subculture (minus a few subs).  If you intend to harvest talent from our carefully manufactured gaming community, try not downplaying our importance.  At this point I believe your continued what an amazing collection of talent theme is becoming transparent, part of your own rhetoric designed to stay vaguely tolerable here.  Personally, I still like you, but your last post seems to prove you enjoy semantics and writing more than you intend to neutralize this topic and make some friends.  Your mistake was letting the immature, thoughtless mudslinging of the Elites bourgeois get to youyou turned this into a war of ideas, and the Elite turned and made this a war of words.  War, in any case, isnt going to help you achieve your means.  

Im sorry your trek didnt end here.  You misdiagnosed this lot of gamers when you failed to see how strangely obsessive our pursuit of solo records had become.  We are here because, regardless of your own opinion, we feel GE and PD missions are each their own Pac-Man or pinball game, or whatever.  I dont care how many subs you want to tack onto our sub-culture, we are delightfully enslaved to the illusion that our accomplishments are meaningful.  We dont like to be told that getting 0:53 on Dam is pointless.  As Suicide Eagle astutely observed, simply by our interaction with one another on these very boards, these undertakings become more than pointless.  They are social even.  Its not fair or accurate to say that fast times are pointless if were not having fun.  The fun lies in the interaction after achieving our goal, coupled with simple satisfaction (this being the part you contend as being pointless).  But if life isnt about pursuing satisfaction, I dont know what its forthe meaning of our accomplishments is purely relative, so no one can ever really say youre wasting your time.  To belabor this point would take me on some tangent regarding morals, ethics, and what actions are truly worthwhile in anyones life but I dont want to get into it.  

I will try to summarize and justify our beliefs one last time.  One, we play for competition.  You say competition for the sake of competition is empty.  Why?  It satisfies us.  This is the pathetic reality that is life (I care not to explore a realism motif again, I trust you understand it by now).  So, Ive defended the worth of competition.  The highest point of satisfaction in our community is achieving a record.  You believe these are also meaningless, as valid as you holding the record for being the most like yourself (That was clever, I will admit.  However I made an effort in my original post to diffuse this type of counterattack by pointing out that I was aware anyone could invent a record.  Remember?)  If you hold this belief, you believe every world record is without meaning.  The worth of any record is completely relative, and here we think its relatively impressive to have a PD/GE record.  This fosters our collectively low self-esteem, and we dont wish for people to come here and try to take it away from us.  You persist with the idea that you are coming with a lighthearted mindset, and that all you really want is to create a fun gaming environment.  I believe this, and I believe this is a worthy aspiration.  I will agree that these boards have stagnated as the record tables have ossified with the passage of time.  I will agree that the competition you envision would be fresh and alive.  I also agree that people are slow to accept new things, and have unfairly snubbed you in accord with their own fear of losing their self image as a l33t gameror something like that.  I will conclude with this; everyone here wants fun.  You say fun; we say satisfaction.  They are both variations of happiness, the sole motive of us all.  In other words, we all want the same thing; we just pursue it by different means.  You find it silly that we openly admit that when we reflect on fast times, we admit that it is boring (at face value).  But even the fisherman may admit that fishing is boring at face value.  But fish do get caught.  (P.S.  I hate fishing, interesting, huh?).  I dont think that we are ridiculous for engaging in boring activities because the end we pursue entices us.  This kind of behavior can be seen everywhere, fishing being just one example.  

At the end of the day (I mean this in a literal sense, not the annoying sense), we (the Elite) usually have achieved some goals, reached satisfaction, engaged in social activities that correspond to our interest, and gone to bed feeling contented.  For these reasons I insist that fast times, as a whole, is totally worthwhile, and offers an experience that cant be directly compared with MP.  We all are achieving happiness, so no one here deserves to be ridiculed for their preference in attaining it.  If everyone here liked MP more than solo, the Elite wouldnt exist.  We came here for a chance to hold what we perceived to be world records and there just isnt a rebuttal that can deconstruct that motive (because of the precept of relativity, if nothing else).  Regarding your own preferred gaming environment, I can again insist that maybe the Elite would be a better place if we competed on such challenges.  However, we (the members of the Elite) are different than you in that we perceive some sort of inherent importance dwelling in accomplishments achieved on the pre-packaged missions.  If we do not see eye-to-eye here, then we should just move on.  I recommend you try to make some friends and go from there.  I dont know what else there is to accomplish in this war.  And no, you wont banned if I can help it.

[StartsStrats]

smasher--

"I'm offended by your snobbish attitude (towards everyone, not just me), and you've lost the respect I originally had for you."

A snobbish attitude is not intended; I can only apologize if that's the way I'm coming off.  It's not intended.  No, don't lose the respect you originally had!!!! Don't!...oh well.

"You've proposed an idea to us, and anyone who might be interested has doubtless already seen this topic"

Interesting, I admit I'm not quite clear on who's participating in these boards and in what capacity.  I'm sure I'll leave you all alone soon enough, once I decide there's really no interest.

"The fact that you're still here suggests to me that you are in fact a troll, who is annoying us simply for the pleasure of it."

No way, believe it or not I've actually had a nightmare where I was trying to defend myself on Elite message boards.  I derive no pleasure from annoying and would of course rather suggest ideas to you without annoying you.

"If I'm wrong, then I would like to ask you to either join us in striving for better single player times"

I am doing this, and I'll tell you I'm doing this simply because of my love of the game and my respect for the group.  I'll let you know what I have and have not accomplished as appropriate.  Now to prepare for Derek's response, which is probably already up...

[StartsStrats]

"why would you go through and weed out pieces of my post and criticize them literally, instead of trying to look at my arguments as a whole?"

To be honest I really *have* tried to do that...I've tried to pick quotes that I feel are representative of your point-as-a-whole, for the most part.  Obviously this is largely a judgment call, so my apologies if I have failed, and I won't ask you to undergo the effort of pointing out where i've failed but you're welcome to.

"I will take a moment to extend a genuine "you're right" regarding the SamSim's initially summary of your post. It was rude, however, I think it was strangely practical..."

This is a good point; I will try to keep things brief but this is actually a battle on two fronts -- keeping things short enough that people actually read, keeping them long enough that they address what's been said.

"Thats just pretentious and rude, the winks not saving it, I really dont feel like sugarcoating it."

Whatever, strike it from the record because my intention was not to offend (just to *de*fend), I'm not sure how it's particularly pretentious though.

"Hey speaking of hypocrisy, you took my suffixation of man to a certain sentence as being especially offensive? Firstly, that was just an attempt to magnify the sincerity of the remark. Amazingly, you went on to call me dawg (later in your dissection of my essay) which is overtly belittling, no? Cmon"

It wasn't intended to be belittling, it was supposed to be a kind of "ok the debate's getting heated, but let's just stay calm".  Magnify the sincerity...I'll buy it.  Let's strike this one from the record too.

"At this point I believe your continued what an amazing collection of talent theme is becoming transparent, part of your own rhetoric designed to stay vaguely tolerable here."

This is just a great comment; it actually made me question my own motives.  But in the end my respect is absolutely genuine, and no one here is going to complain about that.  Other than that, I consider myself to be, if anything, decidedly *in*tolerable.

"The fun lies in the interaction after achieving our goal, coupled with simple satisfaction (this being the part you contend as being pointless)...no one can ever really say youre wasting your time."

Again, I offer no direct refutation.  My only question would be, what engenders said satisfaction?  Why aren't you, for example, dissatisfied because you've spent so much time refining something so limited, something you don't even find enjoyable? -- this is certainly what kept me from getting into fastimes.  Again I'm not trying to belittle your efforts, I'm trying to figure out why competition over this is any better than competition over something else -- particularly something as similar as ComSim.  Your case is very well put, except that it assumes a priori its own validity.  I'm not trying to get you to renounce what you've done; if anything I'm trying to get you to apply the abilities you've attained to something new.  But I will say that I find there to be something highly suspicious about the fact that you haven't and/or can't offer a reason that the fastimes endeavor is enjoyable, beyond the adrenalin experience that results exclusively from the fact that you feel you are rivaling someone.  Rivalry isn't everything...in many ways, it's a nothing.  What you're rivaling is just a group of players as hell-bent on establishing some *extraordinarily*, ironically limited sense of superiority as you are -- or in my case, aren't.  I'll bet that if you give what I'm suggesting a shot, you'll find as much room as you need for competition, amidst a suprisingly refreshing, pleasant sense of non-competitive community, in a robust, coherent combat environment.  That is all.

[youseinthehouse]

Excerpts from:

A Comprehensive Guide on How to Pass College
by Bryan Youse
with help from The Perfect Dark Elite Forum


Chapter 11:  The thesis paper


*Highlight* (Cursor at top of pub20.ezboa... + Hold Shift and Down)

*Copy* (Ctrl + C)

*Open MS Word* (Double click Icon)

*Paste* (Ctrl + V)

*Trade All Words for New Words* (Various Keys)

*Spell Check* (F7)

*Print* (Ctrl + P)

*Hand in Thesis Paper* (Priceless)

I'd just sort of like to quote something on the front page of this particular forum:
"The best Solo-mission players in the world chat here!"


Serious notes:

I think StSt's (happy, Sam? ) approach was pretty wrong, which I told him before he even made his first post here, but he still never really fixed his whole shpiel from "My way is better" to "Together we can be friends"...  Somewhere in your big vocabulary should be the words "Use common courtesy when trying to befriend people".  Try putting them together.  No one likes to be talked to condescendingly...  That's just an observation I've made through experiences during 17 (18 on monday, attentive readers) years on this planet.

To me, it seems like you are writing off solo as "not fun", but Derek's claims of obtaining WR's speak for pretty much all of us.  Especially me. (My first WR).  "Love" might not even be too strong a word (My currently only WR).  Btw, I'm joking when I say that.

But really, how much more "fun" is multi?  Digging down deep into the thousands of thousands of lines of code determining CS patterns is basically the same thing as missions, just, different and less restricted -- a LOT less.  The only reason I find multi more fun [yes, indeed, I said it], is because I play it with REAL LIVE FRIENDS.  And I'm not trying to speak for everyone, and only for me, when I say:  We don't care who wins, or how different strategies will help us, or what different tactics are called, we just like exclaiming profanity and giggling like giddy little schoolgirls when we're being chased while unarmed.  And shooting each other in the head earns extra satisfactory bonus points.  I'm just saying waht I like about multi.  I don't want to deflower that experience with worrying about timing my entrances into certain rooms.  I'm not denying the existence of people who would like that type of attention to detail, I'm just saying why I, and many other of these people who have just written you off without reading your posts completely probably believe.  For the record, I don't appreciate people just telling you off in one sentence (e.g. "Go away, we don't feel like dealing with you" or something along those lines), because I always think you should have a reason for statements like that.

I must say that I appreciate the level of competition you are striving for, and I do see that a heckuva lot of friggin' stuff can be accomplished in multiplayer.  But is picking apart all the AI involved really any different than trying to crack the mathematic pattern to, say, the formation of glass?  I mean, pretty much anything can be as challenging to the human mind as the next thing.  As mere reiteration, we're here because we have chosen to attempt to perfect the creation of a few good designers/programmers to its limits; in this case, the standardized solo mission mode.  It's the most easily managed mode, and the most perfected as of now, thanks to mini-generations upon mini-generations of hard work by our gamers through the ages.  That's what makes us a brilliant organization, we keep building on ourselves.  I understand that you're trying to also build a, for lack of a better term, building community, and that's an admirable foray.  It's not that we're the wrong demographic to target, it's just that trying to change us after *counts on fingers* four years and four months might be a task no man could do with the validmost argumentative tactics, let alone pure trash talk.

Quoted from the PDE FAQ (bolded the parts you should be especially attentive to):
Don't act like you know everything
Don't spell badly
Don't insult the regulars
Don't post stupid stuff
Don't create new threads without good reason, keep your PRs in the PRs thread.
Don't ask for trouble
Don't post fake times
Do respect the better players and admins among us
Do make an attempt to find answers to your questions on the Elite's web pages before asking on the board
Do ask sensible questions
Do think before you post
In short, behave like a sensible person. We like sensible people.

Others on that list are debatable but I don't want to come off as insulting you.

Before you pick apart my post for grammatical/rhetorical errors, try taking it to heart first.  I don't mind you arguing back, but I will be pretty disappointed if you just quote every few sentences of mine and try to disprove their integrity.

Also, thanks for inciting my longest post ever

[genisics]

Don't post stupid stuff
Don't ask for trouble
Don't post fake times
Do think before you post

i'm guessing some of those are debatable ones... but the first 2 are defenitely rock solid.

[Silent Thunder]

Quote:My only question would be, what engenders said satisfaction? Why aren't you, for example, dissatisfied because you've spent so much time refining something so limited, something you don't even find enjoyable?

All right, seriously, this has already been answered.  Derek gave a fine example with fishing, but you still don't seem to see it.

I'll breifly go over Derek's example:
Fishing = Goldeneye
Repeatdly tossing out line and staring at water for hours = Repeatdly playing stage in GE = no fun at all  
Catching a fish = WR on GE = fun and happiness  

I can give a ton of other examples like this, but what it boils down to is goals and the work needed to achieve them.  A world record on GE or PD is a goal, much like many other goals a person could set for themselves in life.  Like other goals in life, getting a WR on GE or PD requires work, and work of any kind is usually not that much fun.  What is fun, however, is reaching that goal.  Why is this?  First, the goal itself is something you wanted in the first place, and having it in your possession is a great feeling, but that is only a small part. What really makes it fun is the stupid boring work.  It's the fact that you know that you earned it. You had to suffer to attain it.  It wasn't handed to you for nothing, you had to work for it.

You ask why we aren't dissatisfied with with going for WR's on solo times when all we seem to do is complain about the monotonous crap we have to go though to get them.  We aren't dissatisfied with it because the crap we go through is the very thing that makes going for a WR satisfying.

Brief summation: The elite is a collection of sadistic freaks, along with the rest of the world.  Suffering for something that we want makes us happier than if we just got it.  

EDIT:  Oh, and as far as why we choose solo to compete instead of multi, it's because it's easiest to keep track of, plus the vast majority of players agree to compete on these select stages.  We need to have standardizations to compete fairly, and solo has been agreed upon by the majority to be the recognized standard upon which to compare relative skill(or in the case of PD, luck ).  We could have chosen multi, but we didn't.  That's just the way it worked out.

[StartsStrats]

ModestYouse--

I think you're a good neutral figure in this debate, and I surely thank you for putting up the link to my site.  I'm continuing with the quotation approach not to embarass (none of you have any reason to be embarassed unless you're keeping your minds closed), but for clarity.  I use the first two quotes simply as a way to offer apology(=justification) to those who take offense; the third and fourth I bring up because, unfortunately, they seem like cases of the pot calling the kettle black.

1. "I think StSt's...approach was pretty wrong."

I think this is one that a lot of people are fixated upon.  First of all, as citizens of the modern world you should realize that good ideas can come from unlikely, even unpleasant places.  Second, my only intention was to get some buzz going, and this being such a boisterous and rugged bunch that seems to chuck the insults around in a rather carefree-yet-essentially-friendly manner, I wonder if the real reason you take offense is because I appear to be "new".  I'm not new; I say again that I was hired to Pdark.com before PD came out, and that I applied there because I had already put in mad hours on GE and was as psyched as most of you probably were, and that I quit because I felt like they weren't seeing the possibilities of the game (I ran screaming around the house at two times: Once when I earned Invincibility on GE, again when I read that PD's multiplayer would include simulants--and that they could be given orders?!? my gawd).  So I'm not new, and I won't act like I am -- I won't act like a logical argument isn't a logical argument, or an illogical isn't an illogical.  Most your arguments have been more or less logical, but many of them were surely guilty of bearing half-truths or worse.

2. "No one likes to be talked to condescendingly..."

I agree -- do you think that's happened to anyone in these topics more than me?  Yet I think I've kept a pretty cool head, and I insist that my compliments to the group have rather outweighed, in quantity and quality, anything that might be construed as derogatory.  I haven't told you you've been wasting your time -- at one point I went out of my way to specify that I don't feel that gaming is a waste of time, and what you're doing is certainly compelling gaming -- I haven't even suggested this, *unless you're competing for competition's sake*: This is, in my opinion, a spiritual, philosophical, metaphysical no-no.  Competition is not "what drives us all" -- communion is.  Self-improvement is one thing; but if you don't find what you're doing intrinsically worthwhile, you've actually negated the premise of self-improvement -- you *are* wasting your *precious* time.

Thus, I've pushed the issue of satisfaction; if the only satisfaction you derive is that of rivaling your competitors, I don't feel guilty at all about trying to get you to reflect on that.  Dissecting my own physiological affect from achieving 54 Dam A, I would say it is not based on "wow, an important achievement for mankind", but "wow, i can compete with the others that got this" -- interesting that such an affect takes place (cf. the thrill of realized equality?), but instinct isn't everything.

That having been said, *I'm not trying to get you to quit fastimes*.  I'm trying to get you to participate with me in something highly, highly related -- and I think your competitive and/or analytical urges alone assure you would have more fun with it than some of you may even be willing to admit.

3. "And I'm not trying to speak for everyone, and only for me, when I say: We don't care who wins, or how different strategies will help us...I don't want to deflower that experience with worrying about timing my entrances into certain rooms."

Ok, certainly your prerogative, sounds fun too.  But can you reconcile this attitude with your devotion to fastimes, where who wins, how different strategies will help, and worries about timing are such a significant part of the experience?

4. "But is picking apart all the AI involved really any different than trying to crack the mathematic pattern to, say, the formation of glass? I mean, pretty much anything can be as challenging to the human mind as the next thing."

Having tactical fun in the ComSim isn't just about picking apart the AI -- though that is a significant task, and one that I find pretty intriguing.  If you look at the remote mines stack discussion ( www.angelfire.com/a3/gran...stack.html ), you'll see that you can do lots of cool stuff without even having the game in front of you -- stuff that makes you feel like a tactician!: Marking up maps and diagrams, analyzing superior territory, plotting patrol routes, figuring out intriguing weapon placements...this has got to sound fun to some of you...!...?  Then, you take that analysis and you jump into the hotseat -- hone that aim!  Evade, nay, disarm that SpeedSim!  Time that grenade toss!  Protect that DarkSim teammate so he can get his download on!  Take that Hill!  Shoot that Fly-By-Wire out of the sky!  Regroup those SimTeammates!  Turn on the Slo-Mo for some fine tuning, or an ultra-deliberate match.  Then you go back and strategize some more.  Etc.  

There's just so much rich and rewarding gameplay that I can't help but continue to nag you about it -- this @#%$ is fun madness, and would be even more fun with a community approach.  Compete if you like; focus on strategies if you're tired of that struggle.  Take a breather and play against a bunch of MeatSims all day.  Start competing again.  Invent a new competition.  The flexibility...it's all about the flexibility.  I'm trying to find this quote about intelligence being a man's willingness to confront a myriad of options...think about it.

P.S. genisics, lol with the posting fake times remark...look at these times and ask yourself if anyone would fake them.
www.geocities.com/startsstrats
actually an update is in order --
Defection A/SA/PA: 0:40/0:54/2:49
Investigation A: 1:43

Peace.

[Wouter Jansen]

hmmm when one plays alone (nobody around to play against for instance), for me at least, I want to do better and better as much as I can until I'm at my best. I'm being serious in this situation.

but, when I would be playing with friends or against other (unknown) players, I don't feel like being serious and just play for fun, which then is a totally other goal. There's nothing that makes me want to be good at multiplayer.

both ways of playing would give me satisfaction - being serious can give me satisfaction (accomplishing a goal)
and playing multi with others can give me satisfaction simply because we would play it so that it would be fun to play, no matter how good we are at it.

Does this make clear how I feel about it?

[yoshifan]

StartsStrats...I'm sure we'll give it a try if we are interested and don't have anything else to play.  It seems like a lot of fun but it looks like we're either content with solo play for now or are into other games at the moment.  Personally I'm playing Mario Golf: Toadstool Tour right now, and already my list of other games I have yet to play is pretty long.  So for the moment, no thanks.

[StartsStrats]

Wouter--

"Does this make clear how I feel about it?"

Honestly, no.  But I think you're operating on a whole other level or something...do whatever you feel comfortable with.

yoshifan--

I appreciate the comments; for the record, though, you don't need to tell me if you're *not* interested, that's  unnecessary -- p.s. I currently own 239 games and I'll still make time for PD any day.