Author Topic: Greetings from The Grand Experiment  (Read 6328 times)

bcks

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Greetings from The Grand Experiment
« Reply #50 on: August 22, 2003, 07:01:00 pm »
Holy Crap:eek , that's alot of friggen games, and i thought i had alot. (About 100 games) Guess not.

Suicide-Eagle

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Greetings from The Grand Experiment
« Reply #51 on: August 22, 2003, 07:53:00 pm »
Whoa!!!  Some of the posts in this topic have to measure at least an 8 on the richter scale of elite's longest posts.

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Suicide Eagle--

"With CS you can build your skill and all that but in solo you get real numbers for your skill. "

Actually, I think the truth is that in solo, you get real skill for the numbers! i.e. time is used as the measuring stick for everything. Unfortunately, this ensures that all skills are pursued in an imbalanced fashion -- always with regard to the timer, ticking away...




So basically you're saying the best player in the world got his skill because of a load of numbers on his fast times list?  That's what that means right?  You get skill for the numbers.  That's slightly wrong.  As you play for fast times you pick up skills such as strafing speed and accuracy.  You then use those skills to go for a new fast time.  As you go for that time your skill increases. So it is the going for the time that gives you the skills.  Saying it's the other way round is like saying I got my knowledge of chaining on Ikaruga because of my score.  WRONG!!!  I got my score because of my knowledge of chaining.  I'm sure Ika players will agree with me here.

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Why aren't you, for example, dissatisfied because you've spent so much time refining something so limited, something you don't even find enjoyable?




I'll add some more to this.  The refinement is not all that limited.  You're assuming that the whole of the elite is one person or that everybody has all the WRs so there isn't much left to improve.  In reality everybody has their own personal goals and places to improve until we hit the dreaded "wall" of no passing.  Once you start finding it really hard to squeeze a few seconds out of almost any level you quit.  Hitting the wall isn't fun because getting the thrill of a new score stops happening so that's when people quit.  Some people's walls are higher ranked than others.

And when I played Perfect Dark with these people it was easily the most fun 2 years of my life.  So shut up about it not being enjoyable. I liked playing the game.  

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I would say it is not based on "wow, an important achievement for mankind", but "wow, i can compete with the others that got this"



You really haven't got a clue.  If that's how drab you're making it sound then why did you bother going for that time?

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worrying about timing my entrances into certain rooms.



Trust me.  If it got to the level of refinement that the solo times are at it would end up being exactly that.  Just look at TS2.  Any two vids of one of the arcade levels are basically doing the same basic maximum efficiency strat.  In the end it would just be more boring and frustrating than solo because of the sheer luck.  Sure it's good for a while but when it comes down to getting just a couple more kills per go and the PRs start slowing that's when it turns into just another PDE/GEE in which we get a couple more seconds per go and the PRs start slowing.  We wouldn't want to move on from one setting because we like the competition.  And if you say we should move on to new settings then you are removing that particular competition that we all loved so much and are effectively spitting on what The Elite stands for.

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We don't care who wins, or how different strategies will help us, or what different tactics are called, we just like exclaiming profanity and giggling like giddy little schoolgirls when we're being chased while unarmed. And shooting each other in the head earns extra satisfactory bonus points.



Amen to that.  We play CS to let off steam and to give going for times a break.  Not to refine and analyse and all that.  Hell we don't even analyse solo to the level you analse multi.  We just learn a strat, learn the niggly bits and go to it.

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...hone that aim! Evade, nay, disarm that SpeedSim! Time that grenade toss! Protect that DarkSim teammate so he can get his download on! Take that Hill! Shoot that Fly-By-Wire out of the sky! Regroup those SimTeammates! Turn on the Slo-Mo for some fine tuning...



So basically you're telling us to go play some CS?  Like most of us do anyway for fun as per the previous quote?




Well I'm done.  I'm not going to check this and I'm tired and stuff so there may be millions of *can't think of word* clashes with what I've said in one place with what I've said somewhere else.  But basically what we're saying is that we're solo players.  Not multi players.  Go and find some multi players.

StartsStrats

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Greetings from The Grand Experiment
« Reply #52 on: August 22, 2003, 11:52:00 pm »
SE---

With the first quote I was trying to be...punny.  Point being that you only need to hone various skills insofar as they yield better times -- this is destined to create a kind of imbalance...after all, precise strafing is far, far more important than *any* other skill when going for fastimes...after all, it is recommended by the official PDE FAQ that *auto*-aim be left ON.

I'm tired too so I won't say anything more about the rest of your post, except to reiterate that I'm not trying to get you to quit fastimes, and that I *challenge* (there, that oughta do it) anyone to explain to me why your PD/FPS/whatever/etc skills are better refined in Solo than they could be in ComSim.  You can quit defending the efforts you've spent with fastimes, I'm not asking you to do this because I already think it's a fascinating pursuit.  Please instead address this question: Why aren't you willing to give some serious attention to ComSim?

Imperfect Clark

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Greetings from The Grand Experiment
« Reply #53 on: August 23, 2003, 01:02:00 am »
Hey Strats...me again!  

I must say your response to me was very receding, and I want you to know I appreciate your effort to avoid this from becoming mere conflict.  Before this post is over I will reconcile several points of disaccord, to your satisfaction I expect.

I think it was Youse's post that made me realize what seemed condescending about all your replies--taking excerpts and critiquing them one by one (ok, ok..replying to them).  You said that you were taking main ideas, but I disagree.  Regardless, I think everyone here agrees that being quoted/critiqued by someone who's new (to the Elite, at least) does seem especially condescending.  Your original topic was strong with condescension, and from there we just returned it in a defensive manner, as we felt we were indirectly under attack.  That being said, I'm going to quote you!

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"I haven't even suggested this, *unless you're competing for competition's sake*"

"Self-improvement is one thing; but if you don't find what you're doing intrinsically worthwhile, you've actually negated the premise of self-improvement -- you *are* wasting your *precious* time."


This is good!  I think we're finally starting to pinpoint the beliefs that are the explanation for all of this disagreement.  Competing for the sake of competition's sake...indeed, seems empty, doesn't it?  I guess that's just the way some of us are around here, sadly.  Of course, we all enjoyed GE and PD for the gameplay, and that's why we came here...so it wasn't a randomly selected activity that we chose to compete in to nurture our self-esteem.  It's our own efforts and accomplishments that allow the fun factor to diminishwe stay in it, because our competitive side wont let us put down the controller.  But I think this is a very important point, that helps answer your very valid critique.  When most of us started, I think the gameplay wasnt nearly assuffocating.  Reflecting on my own history, I found there was a very noticeable inverse relationship between rank and enjoyment of gameplay.  However, the thing that continues to drive those higher ranked players is the fact they are closer to that #1.  Truly, GE/PD takes you by the nuts and doesnt let go ;)   That brings me to my next quote (hypocrisy RuL3z):

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"Thus, I've pushed the issue of satisfaction; if the only satisfaction you derive is that of rivaling your competitors, I don't feel guilty at all about trying to get you to reflect on that. Dissecting my own physiological affect from achieving 54 Dam A, I would say it is not based on "wow, an important achievement for mankind", but "wow, i can compete with the others that got this" -- interesting that such an affect takes place (cf. the thrill of realized equality?), but instinct isn't everything."


Firstly, the only satisfaction isn't just rivaling our competitors...we all came here with ambitions of achieving what we perceived to be meaningful world records, remember?  The rivalry is what keeps it socially stimulating, in my opinion.  Judging from your physiological affect (nice job avoiding "effect"...few know this aspect of the rule), you have different motivations in video game play, that's all there is to this.  Perhaps I should say different standards, rather.  To me, 0:54 was a world record, and there was no one who'd ever done the mission better.  It also was a strong step forward in my quest to be the best GoldenEye solo player in the world.  I'll assume the comment about contributing to the good mankind was used to magnify your point...accordingly I won't bother criticizing it.  I'm sure you don't need to contribute to the good of mankind to feel satisfaction in an accomplishment.  Rather, I hope not.  I liked the thrill of realized equality, well said for many of us this was part of our growth as members of the Elite.  We wanted to be a part of this perceived greatness, so equality was something to feel good about.  For most equality is just a necessary precursor to superiority, agree?  I think you were put off by our rankings because the records were already out of reach, effectively.  I think that if you showed up 3 years ago, you wouldnt feel quite as disappointed.

Again, I reiterate an apology for the repeated trend of people coming in here and simply criticizing your attitude and taking your essay as an affront and nothing more. I think we were just feeding off each other, and I know you dont need me to tell you that.  Dont let that bother you.  Indeed, youve kept your cool.  I was pleased after reading Youses post, Id like to addvery neutral indeed.  Moving on.

I think I really came to understand your attitude toward gaming and life, in general, a lot more clearly after your last few posts.  Looking back at those quotes, you seem to strongly value self-improvement and the accomplishment of things that are worthwhile (in that they positively contribute to the world around you in some way).  Is this accurate?  I dont now that I can speak for the Elite on this topic, but I can speak for myself.  When Im playing video games, Im not really thinking about self-improvement.  It seems that simply playing a game improves my skills, and allows me to then take the game to a higher level and enjoy it in new ways, hopefully.  However, I think there is little to no real world value in my ability at a video game.  I don't think of it as a valuable personal resource of mine that will help me gain anything practical in the real world, usually at least.  Instead I see my aptitude at video games as a way of testing myself and satisfying my innate desire to compete for the title of the best, to vie for the title of the alpha male if I want to trace it back to my Paleolithic roots.  Ridiculous, isnt it?  I suppose this competition is empty indeed.  But again, so much of what everyone does is just empty means of feeling some happiness.  Whether or not its lying on the couch watching Nick-at-Nite, doodling a picture, or ordering dessert despite being fullwe just want to feel good at any given moment.  I keep bring this up because I think it disarms the part of your argument that implies playing for fast times is a waste of time, in the practical sense.  Ultimately, we feel good.  We could spend forever criticizing the self-serving nature of mankind.  

Regarding your refutation about the satisfaction of an accomplished time being diminished by the unhappiness endured in its makingwell, I believe Silent Thunder did a very good job on answering this.  I never even really looked at it the way he did.  But its trueif a fisherman caught a fish every 30 seconds, he wouldnt want to fish anymore.  Likewise, its true that the very period of frustration we endure during the pursuit of a new time is what enhances the satisfaction we feel when we achieve it.  If you want to look at happiness quantitatively, perhaps this is ridiculous.  Even still I think the resonating glow of accomplishment that emanates from me after a hard-earned record may truly make up for whatever suffering was necessary for its completion.

You know, the more I think about this, the more I think Ive discovered the heart of the matter.  I think youll like the following:

WHY WE DO IT:
1) Natural human desire to be superior to others.
2) Intrigue of holding a world record
3) Enjoyment in trying to master this artificial world, transcending our real-world limits.
(It wouldnt be right to say include social interaction on this list, but its certainly a factor in what keeps us interested in this hobby).

Its been agreed and established by both sides in this debate that #3 has faded heavily for competitors in the Elite, and its this point that you think undermines our accomplishments, as we do it solely for reason #1 (you rarely acknowledging #2).  You believe this is a bit shallow.  And I agree with you.  Your point is a good one, and I think we all fight it because, well, we dont like to think its true.  Satisfying to hear?  #3 is your biggest motivation in playing video games, and for many of us its any combination of the first 2.Ill just leave you with that one; youve fought hard enough to earn it.  Please just dismiss the other details.

Oh yeah, and youre right, I was assuming my argument was correct a priori, yeah, yeah  Thats what happens when your ego gets this big.  I have learned, a posteriori, that I am liked around here and can get away with assuming what I intend to prove, *sshhhh*.  Write that down.  And dont tell anyone.
Derek Clark

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Greetings from The Grand Experiment
« Reply #54 on: August 23, 2003, 03:13:00 am »
I didn't read any of the posts.

cubentop

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Greetings from The Grand Experiment
« Reply #55 on: August 23, 2003, 10:42:00 am »
Dang, soon the posts are soon going to be 2 pages long.:eek
This topic is getting out of hand.

Wouter Jansen

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Greetings from The Grand Experiment
« Reply #56 on: August 23, 2003, 11:42:00 am »
I think I have the longest post here on these GE/PD/GC boards posted in like 2001 or 2002. I haven't seen a longer one yet.
sexy, this

StartsStrats

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Greetings from The Grand Experiment
« Reply #57 on: August 23, 2003, 12:43:00 pm »
StartsStrats--

oh, wait, that's me.

"You can quit defending the efforts you've spent with fastimes, I'm not asking you to do this because I already think it's a fascinating pursuit."

I reiterate this statement, but with some edition -- go ahead and keep defending those efforts if your comments are going to be as interesting and well thought out as Derek's have been, but realize that I already have much admiration for, if nothing else, the very mindsets that keep you motivated toward these goals (also the aim and efficiency and, yeah, ruthlessness you no doubt gain).  You're right, I forgot all about that intrigue, the same intrigue that convinced me to drop 20+ hours on Dam A 54.

Meanwhile, who's up for some ComSim???  Nobody, right.  This was supposed to be my newsletter topic to keep you informed about TGE goings-on, one that I hope can stay in the PDE>PDE forums (nudge nudge, Youse)for visibility's sake.  My m.o. right now is to continue to play with fastimes (I'll probably at least finish out my time sheet...remember that for now I'm not consulting strats and am not seeking out glitches), and to continue working on stuff for TGE.  I'm at least fairly certain of this: the-elite.net is the best Solo site on the web, and thegrandexperiment is the best MP -- both products of unprecedented, largely unfathomable dedication. lol

Please just do me this favor if you can: Visit the site occasionally, consider playing a GOTW or two if you've got some spare play time -- maybe have a look at Week 4 (up now), and if it stumps you check back here next week when I reveal the secret.  Remember that with ComSim, *you* decide what skills you'll hone, while competition remains very possible.


Wouter--

Good point.  I think a longest-post competition is in order...

p.s. DC i don't think your ego is that big...in fact i think your saying so is something of a clever ruse...;-) (is *that* wink a saver?)

Greetings from The Grand Experiment
« Reply #58 on: August 23, 2003, 02:09:00 pm »
Longest post by wouter?

Let's see.  2001.  Well, I started playing Perfect dark a long time ago; probably sometime during 2001.  However, I'm not sure if I knew about the elite until 2002, therefore, chances are, I probably didn't know about t-e.n yet.  Which means, I obviously wasn't around to read wouters super-duper lengthy post from hell.  However, I could search for it; chances are, it's in the Goldeneye topics.  But, there are so many topics!  All the dead ones at the bottom of the list of forums; there's got to be over 10 of them, with like 19 pages each, damn that's a lot!  But you see, someone out there probably felt it was necessary to save the link to this lengthy post, as they probably thought maybe sometime it would go down in history as truly the longest post.  If this is the case, then all I would have to do is simply message someone on AIM (or MSN/Yahoo), and then just ask them if they happen to know where it's at.  However, most people probably don't know about this post, and therefore they would probably end up directing me to the poster himself, W00ty "big boobs" Jansen, aka "flaming bunker whore".  Of course, being the fag I am, I would not want to talk to him on AIM, as I'm sure he's busy going for Bunker 1 Agent 16 or something.  So after countless hours of searching through old topics, I will probably just hit nothing.  Then, maybe someday I would get the balls to talk to him for once; I mean, he would probably call me a liar a few times as usual, and then be on his way, but I guess it would be worth a shot; all I would have to do his hurry up and ask him, before you calls me gay and blocks me or something.
However, I have seen wooty on 2 different screen names; one of them may not be the real Wouter.  I would have to determine this by asking Wouter something only he would know, but then again, I wouldn't know the real answer, so there would be no real way for me to determine which one is real.  Still yet again, they could both be Wouter Himself, in which case I would probably waste time asking people which is which.  But what if neither of the two are Wouter?
What if the real Wouter Jansen didn't really have AIM?  I mean, maybe he comes on and updates his times page, but another character created the Wouter Jansen screen name on here?  He could have faked Wouters whole life, and he could just be sitting there doing nothing, getting all the fame and glory, while the real Wouter is out there playing his ass off getting good times, and then not knowing there was a board to discuss his crazy times on.
Back to the point; Wouter's long post.  I could go about using the search function; there is a small chance that Wouter might have made the title of it with the word "long" in it.  Of course, this would probably only bring up stuff about my penis, but then again, there is that small chance that Wouter made the title of his post "Long post" or something.  If nothing comes up, I would probably presume my search through ancient topics, day in and out, searching through every forum, every board, and hopefully one day, I would find the post.  Of course, I've never actually seen it, so you know, it could be 45 pages long.  I would probably not want to read it; usually when I see long posts in the TS2 boards (if they ever get posts) I just skip them and call the person who posted it a fag (because the longest posts come from snoozer).  However, in this case, the supposed-longest post came from Wouter, and we all know the deal with him; he's not a fag, he's a lesbian!  Which means, maybe snoozer is a lesbian?  No, this can't be true.  Then I guess that all this time Wouter has been lying; he's actually a fag.  It's sad but true; Flaming Jansen, what a shame.

A simple link, of course, would help me out, and if WJ happens to have the link to this extremely long post of his, I would love to witness the aesthetic beauty of his usual narcissistic posts.

And you know, speaking of which, that reminds me of this next story.
I was 8 years old; wait, I think I was 9.  No, maybe i was 7...anyways, I was walking down the street, just walking....walking...yep, still walking.  And then all the sudden; I was walking down the street.  Walk, walk, walk.  I turned a corner, and to my surprise; I was walking down another street!  I kept on walking.  Great story, huh?

Since we are on the topic of perfect dark (actually we aren't), I would just like to point out that my friend has fixed the cord to my 64, so it should work properly.  The only thing stopping me from showing my true work-of-art-runs is a controller.  I can't seem to find controllers here; there are no stores that sell them at all, and it gets on my nerves.  I guess the only way to get a controller anymore is to buy it from a friend or buy it from ebay.  E-bay takes a while to get it, so I think I should buy one from my friend.  Actually, since my friend doesn't use his anymore, I'm sure he might just give it to me for free.  I mean, the kid has a PS2 now; he doesn't even use that!  Let alone the 64...

Now that we are on the subject of PS2, let's talk about Timesplitters.  I was hoping more people would join the Timesplitters Elite.  (Not Timesplitters 2).  This is currently run by thegame, and he is doing a very good job, might I add.  There are only a few people who are in the rankings (4 or 5 right now), but soon there should be more, which is why we need YOU to join us!  The strafing in that game is a bit weird/random, maybe it has to do with which version you use; there seems to be 2 versions of the game, and I think there is a regular version and then a "Platinum" version.  I'm not sure of the differences, or how to tell which is which, but I'm sure there are 2 versions.  What's the point have having 2 versions?  Was something major changed?  If so, then what?  I would like some answers to these questions.  Also, the strafing is like, random.  When you first start off, you can go pretty fast.  But after a few runs, it seems like you can't strafe as fast.  If you want to strafe fast again, you have to reset the whole game, which takes like an hour, because you have to put in the memory card manager disc and all that other crap.  That's why I need one of those memory cards that my friend has, you don't need the memory card manager disc!  It's so cool, I wonder where he got his from?  Does anyone else have one?
Ohh yea, if you are interested in joining the TSE, look here for the times and stuff,and it has the link to join, and the link to the forum that we are trying to get TSE people to use to post times and stuff.
Please, do join!  I think the game is great, well, at least the challenges; I had most of the WRs at one point, until this super-strafe crap was found, and now it seems like snoozer and chris do it very consistenly (as in, that's the only strafe they do), and thegame has also had very much luck with it.  Speaking of him, he came back from behind me, and passed my total time by well over 1:15...pretty good, I must say; one day I hope to drop a lot of time off of my current scores if I could figure out that damn strafe.  One day.
Anyways, if you are looking at the rankings right now, you will probably see me with all 27 challenge records; wake up people!  ENTER YOUR SCORES!  I want to see some challenge scores in!  Not just my first completions!  I'm sure some people out their have every one of those scores beat!  Enter those times in!  I want some competition!  Not in Story, as I have all but given up on that.

So like, if you even *thought* about reading *any* of that, you are gay.
I really hope this was longer than wouters post, as I just made this all up from the top of my head, and it took like a whole 5 minutes to type.

Edit: Damn, one of clarks posts up there ^ took up almost the same amount as this!  That's because he has quotes, those take like 40 extra lines :o

Wouter Jansen

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Greetings from The Grand Experiment
« Reply #59 on: August 23, 2003, 02:29:00 pm »
My longest post is I think my 2519th post, that post was 3 times longer than what you just posted.

It was a very fun read nonetheless :smokin

I suppose editing it again and make it 5 times as big :p

I read it all, yeah, and I'm a gay female.

btw, can someone please submit all the perfect times for ge and pd so we don't have to bother playing them anymore sicne they will be maxed then, also don't forget to have full video proof to back them up and be gay just so you can communicate on these boards.
sexy, this

Jimbo

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« Reply #60 on: August 23, 2003, 05:16:00 pm »
Some guy on GameFAQs posted 9 pages used to the fullest extent (there's post size limits, they're still huge nonetheless) of stats of all his created characters on WWF No Mercy, now THAT's the longest post evar  >D

Nightcom

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« Reply #61 on: August 23, 2003, 05:38:00 pm »
Please tell me that you saved that topic!:eek

cubentop

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Greetings from The Grand Experiment
« Reply #62 on: August 23, 2003, 07:17:00 pm »
Yeah i know about GFaqs, if you look at any topic there, from N64 to GC or anything, there are 18 pages or so in an index of all topics and i remember checking all pages and feck, all pages up to 17 or so had a post on the same day. Shyeeaat, people post all day over there, what spam.|I

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« Reply #63 on: August 23, 2003, 10:31:00 pm »
No spam here.

StartsStrats

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« Reply #64 on: August 24, 2003, 12:55:00 am »
Riddle Match Hint #1 -- The trick has to do with the *arena* variable.

Wouter Jansen

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« Reply #65 on: August 24, 2003, 07:44:00 am »
That must be your least lengthy post around here.
sexy, this

StartsStrats

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« Reply #66 on: August 25, 2003, 11:21:00 am »
I'm re-posting this because spammers spilled the topic onto a new page and because it's a good summary for new viewers:

"Meanwhile, who's up for some ComSim???  Nobody, right. ... My m.o. right now is to continue to play with fastimes (I'll probably at least finish out my time sheet...remember that for now I'm not consulting strats and am not seeking out glitches), and to continue working on stuff for TGE. I'm at least fairly certain of this: the-elite.net is the best Solo site on the web, and thegrandexperiment is the best MP -- both products of unprecedented, largely unfathomable dedication. lol

Please just do me this favor if you can: Visit the site occasionally, consider playing a GOTW or two if you've got some spare play time -- maybe have a look at Week 4 (up now), and if it stumps you check back here next week when I reveal the secret. Remember that with ComSim, *you* decide what skills you'll hone, while competition remains very possible."

Lanky007

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« Reply #67 on: August 25, 2003, 12:08:00 pm »
well, that is a LOT to read. i only skimmed through some of the posts. and ss (sam, ima call u sam;) . so ss=startsstrats) stp using so many acronyms and words which i dont know, dagnamit! dam english majors! *starts throwing twinkies at ss*

anywayz, i think u have a good idea going, ss. for people that are interested in competing in cs, the best thing to do is keep setting up different scenarios as you are doing. however, this type of competition is different than what the PDE is all about. as mentioned many times earlier, its about achieving the best possible time on each solo mission(main game) in this game, rather than beating a certain set scenario in mp.

Although what u are doing also requires skill with strafing, turning, aiming, and basically all the things from solo, and then some in order to achieve, but the thing is, this kinda competition comes from scenarios that we come up with rather than the ones that game writers have. for solo, they clearly provide certain objectives to be completed. these objectives are the same for all games.

u will probably be able to come up with many kinds of scenarios for mp for people to compete on. the thing is, the solo missions is what PDE was originally created for. in solo missions, the game keeps track of ur time. im not sure about others, but doing that scenario setup and mp competition in general is way to much work, im just too lazy to setup scnearios and compete with them. its so much easier just going for fast times because the game does all the work.

as for the skillz, it takes more skillz in most mp fights than solo. but solo takes skllz of its own, strafing precisely, determing which gaurds to shoot on pa to achieve a safe health status, figuring out whether to left strafe or right strafe in certain places, and different techniques in general. the mp competition lacks concrete objectives.

in conclusion, for people that want to compete in mp, u have a great idea. hopefully u will find some more people that are interested in mp competition.

StartsStrats

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« Reply #68 on: August 25, 2003, 12:50:00 pm »
Lanky--

(I contacted him personally about just giving the topic a read, so I thank him for actually replying)

"this kinda competition comes from scenarios that we come up with rather than the ones that game writers have"

Yes, it's a very fascinating competition, esp to someone like me that's been looking for anything at all interesting regarding GE/PD on the web for the past five years.  The fact that they include a "best time" feature at all is interesting, but often designers will do this without even necessarily intending, much less believing, that players will take it to the level that you all have.  In terms of programming, it takes relatively very little to keep track of something like this, so I'm not sure how stable your "standardized...preloaded into the game" argument is -- if anything, the designers seem to have intended you to spend the bulk of your time in ComSim (a *required* 300 hours of play time just to achieve the #1 mp ranking, flexibility and replay up the wazoo, etc).

"the thing is, the solo missions is what PDE was originally created for."

uh-huh...here's something I just said to Matthijs:

~~in my initial approach i figured i needed to actually take some of the energy that people were putting into fastimes and transfer it to mp...now i see that that only offends, so i'm trying to increase the motivation for the games as a whole [ -- a significantly more difficult task.]~~

"as for the skillz, it takes more skillz in most mp fights than solo."

Exactly.

"but ... the mp competition lacks concrete objectives."

Not true.  Every scenario selection entails very concrete objectives, and most of the "concrete objectives" that you are upholding in solo are just a matter of shooting someone/thing or pressing the b button at a certain time.

"in conclusion, for people that want to compete in mp, u have a great idea. hopefully u will find some more people that are interested in mp competition."

Merci beaucoup, monsieur...J'aspere que les Elites vont contempler mes idees.

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« Reply #69 on: August 25, 2003, 02:04:00 pm »
You say that most fights in multi require more skill than in solo... I don't totally agree with this... Although the solo mode can be rediculously easy at times, even on perfect agent, Playing well in solo, i.e achieving fast times, takes just as much skill, if not more than in multi.  For instance shutting out a 2player challenge 30 with only one player is incredibly hard, but it is still (arguably) easier than getting a very fast time such as 1:09 Villa Agent is.

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« Reply #70 on: August 25, 2003, 03:06:00 pm »
SR---

"You say that most fights in multi require more skill than in solo"

Actually, I didn't say this...one of your comrades did.

"Playing well in solo, i.e achieving fast times, takes just as much skill, if not more than in multi"

I'm beginning to see this too as apples-and-oranges, except that strafing is so ridiculously important in fastimes -- in mp it's important, but it's also appropriately peripheral (or should I say perifferol).  I think a great deal of you just aren't giving it a chance, so I'll say again that PD's Advanced Setup was initially daunting for me, but because of my faith in the game I overcame this and now realize there's extremely fun combatting to be had -- even more so if you've got human buddies.  I conclude with more snippets from my conversation with matthijs:

"Matthijsdadutchm: comsim....hmm, I rather enjoy the impression and the reaction of real life buddies, that kind of interaction, a sim can't never match that
StartsStrats: yeah i totally agree
StartsStrats: but i was playing an all-CMP match last night in a free-for-all with two DarkSims in Warehouse, and it showed surprising parallels to true multi
StartsStrats: so there's some great fun to be had i think, and then the skills you hone against sims will transfer over to when you play with buddies -- allowing you to crush
Matthijsdadutchm: tell me in which way then, I am curious
StartsStrats: well for example, once you get good at checking your radar, you can find out a lot about what the DarkSims are doing...often I was in a kind of stalemate with one sim, while keeping an eye on the other to make sure he didn't sneak in
Matthijsdadutchm: sure, it can provide fun, but it won't be able to replace to sheer pleasur of having a friend sitting next to you, staring both at the same tv screen
StartsStrats: of course not, that is the absolute ultimate to me...obviously that has nothing to do with fastimes though
StartsStrats: the main thing is that once you learn enough about sim AI, and watch your radar closely, you can visualize what the sims are doing, creating an experience that is similar to splitscreen -- obviously the difference is that the sims will never be as sneaky as a smart human player
Matthijsdadutchm: yeah, when having enough experience, you might get to approach them as humans as you starting to see some patterns
StartsStrats: yeah...plus, when you play pd multi, it can be fun to put sims in there to see how each of the human players react to them...i played a bunch of ge with one of my friends so I know he can compete with me one-on-one, but if we played a match with darksims installed i bet i'd win because i have more experience with them
StartsStrats: so even if you're doing comsim with just sims, those skills can very satisfyingly transfer to true head-to-head against human opponents
Matthijsdadutchm: yeah, that's correct, just the experience is decisive here"

"StartsStrats: well, you can join my boards if you like, they're at pub17.ezboard.com/bthegrandexperiment .  I'm trying to find contributors.
StartsStrats: (For a limited time only, free mod privileges to all who apply)
Matthijsdadutchm: ah okay, I will have a look there
Matthijsdadutchm: are there any ppl in yet?
StartsStrats: not much in there, only me and another dude
Matthijsdadutchm signed off at 12:14:11 PM.
Matthijsdadutchm signed on at 12:14:17 PM.
StartsStrats: you check it out? tron2003 thought it would really get people riled up if he "issued a general challenge"
StartsStrats: it's a slo-mo challenge so i figured elites would be like 'piece of cake, i'm gonna crush this guy'"

So one of the things I'm saying is that you'll find that various skills fall into place a little better when you're playing ComSim -- especially because you can always just tweak your settings to readjust skill priorities; strafing and luck don't have to be the dominant aspects of the experience.

Imperfect Clark

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« Reply #71 on: August 25, 2003, 09:55:00 pm »
Sweet!  I actually defused this topic.  All it took was admitting StartsStrats was right!  Wait....

Glad to see you turning your attention to TGE again, looking for recruits.  I have on piece of advice for today.  When issuing challenges, just try to provoke me.  Like "I bet you couldn't even (blank a blank if a blank blanked your blank)."  Then I go "OH YEAH!?!?!?" and next thing you know, I've been tricked into wasting an evening.  If you want more hits, I can just set the-elite.net to redirect to you for like 24 hours, you'll get 1000 hits or so ;)

Short enough people?   People might read this...I'd better assert my heterosexuality--just in case.  I'm straight.
Derek Clark

"i'm 1.1 in my hart, u know that" - Matthijs ten Ham.

..

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« Reply #72 on: August 25, 2003, 09:57:00 pm »
Wait.. you are straight!!??!! What was all that "come over and get in my pants" talk about last night then!?!

StartsStrats

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« Reply #73 on: August 26, 2003, 12:24:00 pm »
Wait, now I'm supposed to start provoking again?  Sweet:

pub17.ezboard.com/fthegra...ID=5.topic

tron2003

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« Reply #74 on: August 26, 2003, 06:55:00 pm »
Clark,

I bet you couldn't even *win* GOTW#2, with Slow-mo AND JoShield on!

you pea-brain.   :eek    (Actually...well I won't spoil the suspense...consider yourself challenged, BEEOTCH.)

Edit: Oh, and uh, it's best if you turn down the time limit to 10 minutes...you coxcomb.

JugadorJ3

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« Reply #75 on: August 27, 2003, 06:06:00 am »
longest post on gfaqs?

I have a "one byte below the limit" post.

edit: tron; i hope you get banned.

StartsStrats

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« Reply #76 on: August 27, 2003, 11:39:00 am »
Maybe you missed the joke, Juggy...unless that was a little joke of your own.

This brings up a good point...there's a bunch of interesting discussion in this topic, so if you're coming in here (and particularly if you're commenting), consider reading the whole thing.

Wouter Jansen

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« Reply #77 on: August 27, 2003, 12:25:00 pm »
I think the most important post people should read is Josh's (NSPD) post though.
sexy, this

SamSim

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« Reply #78 on: August 27, 2003, 07:47:00 pm »
Quote
Quote:
you coxcomb



Wow. That's pretty obscure.

cubentop

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« Reply #79 on: August 27, 2003, 08:29:00 pm »
Well scr00 you Tron, obviously you have no idea Dereks one of the best players here in the elite, and obviously would kick your ass in multiplayer PD, i bet you aren`t even a member(or maybe you are, and are at the far bottom) so i suggest you shut up insulting Derek, if you want to start insulting people go to another forum. I am not even going to start arguing with you, n00best of n00bs. You probably don`t have a clue what these boards are for do you Tron?, just leave. Or maybe you do compete and all, but are too new here to know whos who so don`t say anything to anyone you don`t know and make sure they know it is only a joke. You are clearly a n00bass here and you would have no right just coming into a forum were nobody has even heard of you and start flaming important members. You best hope DC doesn`t read your post.

StartsStrats

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« Reply #80 on: August 27, 2003, 10:36:00 pm »
cubentop you fool:

Derek Clark:
"Glad to see you turning your attention to TGE again, looking for recruits. I have on piece of advice for today. When issuing challenges, just try to provoke me. Like "I bet you couldn't even (blank a blank if a blank blanked your blank)." Then I go "OH YEAH!?!?!?" and next thing you know, I've been tricked into wasting an evening."

Thus tron's tongue-in-cheek response.  Get a grip!

tron2003

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« Reply #81 on: August 28, 2003, 12:02:00 am »
Yes, thank you StartsStrats.  I was indeed just trying to get DC's goat, or hamster, as he himself suggested.

But strangely enough, we've not seen the promised "Oh YEAH?!?!?" in return.  I hope I didn't offend.  Perhaps it would please the great DC to learn that the tron2003 that issued the sporting challenge is also the perifferol from page 2, for whose writing the great DC has expressed admiration.  (We won't mention the emoticon for which the great DC expressed wisecrack.)  By the way, I've posted a killer score for that challenge and have written ALL about it in TGE message boards (see StartsStrats' last hyperlink).

Now that I've thanked StartsStrats, I question him.  You dismissed SlayerRocket's correct assertion that you claimed skill is more the dominion of MP than of solo.  You did so by saying that it was not you that claimed this, but one of SR's comrades.  But after quoting Lanky007's claim, you had written that you agreed with it:
"'as for the skillz, it takes more skillz in most mp fights than solo.'
Exactly."  
So hopefully I've laid down the gauntlet to the both of ya...you knavish whoresons.

tron2003

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« Reply #82 on: August 28, 2003, 12:10:00 am »
I just read the definition of coxcomb from SamSim's link.  I wasn't sure exactly what it meant when I wrote it, but it's actually pretty RAW:

A vain, showy fellow; a conceited, silly man, fond of display; a superficial pretender to knowledge or accomplishments; a fop.

DC, you are a vain, showy fellow; a conceited, silly man, fond of display; a superficial pretender to knowledge or accomplishments.  But you are not a fop!  I take that back.

Imperfect Clark

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« Reply #83 on: August 28, 2003, 12:55:00 am »
OH YEAH!?!??!?!

*Schedules PD time for September 23rd in PDA*

In one month, your ass is mine.

(PS...Tron = Strats?)
Derek Clark

"i'm 1.1 in my hart, u know that" - Matthijs ten Ham.

StartsStrats

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« Reply #84 on: August 28, 2003, 11:38:00 am »
wot's 'in PDA'?  be careful, tron may have developed his game too much by Sep 23 for you to compete, not sure...feeling lucky?

tron=perifferol

lastly, tron, don't start! i'll comb a whore into your c.ock's navel, son.  obviously both of my comments ("exactly." and "actually, i didn't...") were the linguistic equivalents of deft parries, and are thus far above reproach.

damn profanity filtering...let's see if that adjustment works.

oh yeah, better put the link back in, too...all you holier-than-thou Elites will definitely want to take a look at this, as will the rest of ya:

pub17.ezboard.com/fthegra...ID=5.topic

StartsStrats

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« Reply #85 on: August 28, 2003, 02:32:00 pm »
eh bien, il y a le jeu de la semaine cinquieme aussi:

www.angelfire.com/az3/gra...otw.html#5

la voila!

Wabs

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« Reply #86 on: August 28, 2003, 03:38:00 pm »
why in french ? :)  

that's nice btw , almost correct ;)

StartsStrats

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« Reply #87 on: August 28, 2003, 05:40:00 pm »
pourquoi en francais? in honor of the french elite, of course!

almost correct?  zut alors!  

je suis desolee, mais je ne parle bien francais.

Jimbo

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« Reply #88 on: August 28, 2003, 07:30:00 pm »
Buch Dich </Rammstein>

StartsStrats

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« Reply #89 on: August 29, 2003, 12:07:00 am »
So, hey, tron and I are dueling over the GOTW#2 variant...you guys gotta try it out, just slaughter us so that I don't have to keep up this competition with my old buddy tron.  Did I mention it's extremely fun?  Here's a link to the topic again.

pub17.ezboard.com/fthegra...ID=5.topic


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« Reply #90 on: August 29, 2003, 02:26:00 am »
Wow, 57-34 is insane.  I actually did program the challenge today and tried for a bit.  I wasn't in the mood to play though, so I didn't, basically.  I don't think I like this challenge, can't help that.  I think my tastes have catered themselves to conditions I became used to in solo play.  This would explain why I don't like shields and why I like LTK...used to people dropping.  Not to fond of cloaking either....

I dunno, cloaked, shielded, dragon-toting, ill-tempered dark speedsims is a good way to piss me off in a hurry.  My idea of challenge is different...can I win 150-0 or 120-0 is the challenge in challenges I make ;)   Does this make me emotionally shallow?  Yes.  I don't like dying.  Just my tastes, can't criticize that.

Also, I loathe shields in general because it gives to much power to the player in the lead imo.  Plus adding it to the game means you need to know the shield locations, which isn't always true for everyone playing (e.g., 4-player).  My experience is that once one person has good health, a shield, and the best weapon, the game is over.  These are only my preferences, I'm only sharing.

I'm not that good at these games, I can just strafe and aim, that's nothing.  Great score tron, and great work Strats.
Derek Clark

"i'm 1.1 in my hart, u know that" - Matthijs ten Ham.

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« Reply #91 on: August 29, 2003, 02:35:00 am »
And yes I used "to" instead of "too" twice and no I'm not going to edit that post.
Derek Clark

"i'm 1.1 in my hart, u know that" - Matthijs ten Ham.

JugadorJ3

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« Reply #92 on: August 29, 2003, 04:20:00 am »
I wasn't in on any joke, SS. Just stating something.

StartsStrats

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« Reply #93 on: August 29, 2003, 11:09:00 am »
Well Jug if you weren't involved in jokery then you likely mistook tron's comments like cubentop did so here's a make up kiss *mwah*.

Clark, lol.  Yeah, this match is a total pain, Slo-Mo or not.  You don't like dying...me either.  tron apparently only died six times in achieving his breakthrough score, though.  Next week or so I'll probably do a One-Hit Kills match....actually I was going to go one better and do one where you're given a 1000% handicap, allowing you to start feeling like action heroes again.  At the same time, WUSS!!  Just kidding, I realize it's very frustrating; it probably wouldn't take you that long to get a winning score though, with Slo-Mo ON...and the fact that One-Hit Kills is OFF (and that the DarkSims start every life shielded, and often come through the door cloakin') makes this quite a bloody, bitter battle -- very fun once you get used to it, I say.  It's quite rugged.  There's also the touching dichotomy of DarkSims that can be on the one hand infuriatingly dangerous, and on the other heartwarmingly clueless.

So anyway, let me know what you'd prefer in a match -- any of you, particularly as regards One-Hit Kills...Week 6 or 7 will be Elite-dedicated (actually Week 6 is supposed to be Power Weapons...you guys gotten used to the RC, and its secondary function, via Solo?  It's tough but fair, makes you feel superslick once you get the hang of it).  Also, Week 5 is a lot more aiming and strafing oriented, it's fast-paced without being too involved (i.e. too easy for your lead to disintegrate), so why not try that and/or stop acting like there aren't a billion different matches you could come up with that are as hard, as easy, as aiming- or strafe-based as you desire? ;)  

"I kid.  I kid 'cuz I love."

cubentop

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« Reply #94 on: August 29, 2003, 07:18:00 pm »
Oeurgh, make up kiss with Jugador, this strats guy just proved he really is friggin` gay.

tron2003

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« Reply #95 on: August 29, 2003, 08:11:00 pm »
"Mood?  Mood is a thing for love-making and cattle!" --Duncan Idaho, _Dune_

Darn fine score there, Strats.  I am curious to know whether using the Follow command was something you did frequently.  If so, you'd be fighting quite a different match.  My strat relied on sneaky solo work and exploiting sim behaviors, resulting in my low number of deaths that you mention.

While I am disappointed that DC bowed out, I will say that it shouldn't be that surprising, if you consider the psychology.  No, I don't refer to my devastating psy-ops campaign (aka Renaissance-era revilement).  Rather, I suggest that, as a general rule, there is little excitement in pursuing a challenge that someone else has gone far with already.  This is because you go into the challenge thinking that there is little possibility for improvement.  

As an outsider, you play the challenge a couple times and think, "this guy is inhumanly good at this; why bother?"  You can't get in the zone, because in the back of your mind is that killer score.  And indeed, those Darksims are spirit crushers, especially if you haven't discovered their heartwarming clueless side that Strats mentions (which will come with experience).

Now let me provide some perspective, which I hope will be encouraging.  While I wrote a lot of @#%$ about my strategy in TGE boards, and I sounded authoritative and stuff, it doesn't surprise me that Strats has now achieved a significantly better result than me, possibly with a very different gameplan.  That previously "insane" 57-34 score is now a second place score.  Because, as I know, my result wasn't due to superlative PD skill or masterful strategy (neither of which do I claim).  

I think it comes down to motivation.  I actually spent time just investigating Skedar routes, figuring out Darksims, and playing around with sim commands, individually.  Then I learned the scenario, as a whole.  And all the while, I was driven by that competitive ego-boosting that DC has described in this thread.  After all, this GotW #2, slowmo thing is my challenge.  ( do you hear, Strats? )
I doubt seriously that anyone here, with a fire in his belly, couldn't beat my score.  And probably in about 10 hours total time.  But only if you have got the DESIRE.  [Regardless, DC, I appreciate your dabble with it.]

StartsStrats

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« Reply #96 on: August 30, 2003, 12:51:00 pm »
tron, what gives?: Another fine post from a n00b, what *is* the world coming to.

The Follow command....hmmmm....well my understanding was that once you entered the command they would Follow whenever they could from that point forward -- but the orders seem sadly to be one of the less-than-perfectly-polished aspects of ComSim.  Thus, the main thrust of my work with this match has been research-oriented:

"I actually spent time just investigating Skedar routes, figuring out Darksims, and playing around with sim commands, individually. Then I learned the scenario, as a whole."

This is a great approach and it more or less eliminates all those feelings of frustration -- you can envision yourself as a simple scientist who wants only enlightenment...use things like the Cloaking Device cheat and Unlimited Ammo (yes, even the process of designing research experiments is engaging) so that you can become a mere observer, and just figure out where those sims' heads are at.  Gradually you'll start to generate a more and more complete picture of what will go on during any given match, giving you a much more stable grounding the next time you actually vie for a score.

"possibly with a very different gameplan"

Yes, quite possibly.  I mention this to dispel any fears that the match has been refined to the degree of, er, tactical inevitability that any given fastimes run has...there *is* ample room for improvement, and you Elites are just the ones to put the smack down.

"After all, this GotW #2, slowmo thing is my challenge. ( do you hear, Strats? )"

"I doubt seriously that anyone here, with a fire in his belly, could beat my score. And probably in about 10 hours total time."

Yes, I am eager to become a spectator instead of a participant...this match is deadly!  Presumably tron meant to say "...couldN'T beat my score": 57-34 is the score to beat (which shouldn't take, as he says, more than ten hours for any of you, no offense to him) but otherwise I will assure you a good time if you just play this match for a winning score -- something many of you could probably achieve on the first attempt?

I don't know what else to say except that this match is downright decent...I can't imagine that any PD fan who  enjoys challenging himself won't get quite a bit of fun out of it.

tron2003

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« Reply #97 on: August 30, 2003, 04:45:00 pm »
Yes, I meant "couldn't" there.  Oopsies.  p.s. "in PDA" means in his Palm handheld.

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« Reply #98 on: August 30, 2003, 08:21:00 pm »
So does that mean he was being sarcastic?  Clark, you're so...rambunctious.  Play this match!  It is for cool guys like you ONLY.

Imperfect Clark

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« Reply #99 on: August 31, 2003, 03:41:00 am »
First allow me to clarify a few details.

Tron, there are two things you ought to know about my experience with PD and GOTW2.  Firstly, I only found out about your score after I had played, and subsequently, powered off the N64 and returned PD to its dusty closet domain.  Also, I know the skedar map EXTREMELY well.  In fact, my mastery of that map is almost objectionable?  It is, at the least, embarrassing.  I played Challenge 30 to death in my glory days, and I've accomplished all kinds of noteworthy feats.  I've logged a good 4-5 days on Ch. 30 exclusively, so my familiarity with Skedar and the behavior of darksims is pretty solid.  However, darksims aren't quite the same in combat...*goes into daydream ...darksim pops around corner and deftly fires 5 magnum bullets into my forehead in 0.25 seconds, shooting the 5th bullet while already retreating back around the corner, getting ready to greet me at my spawn point.*

"There's also the touching dichotomy of DarkSims that can be on the one hand infuriatingly dangerous, and on the other heartwarmingly clueless."

Great!  Very well said, indeed....  I find myself so annoyed by them because of the very dichotomy you describe.  How can this being that was just running backwards FOR NO REASON be able to kill with such impossible precision?  It's hard not to personify something that's been designed to be person-like.  But they're programming is a little spotty, and indeed, it is "heartwarmingly clueless" to run by sims running away from hills on challenge 30 (off to engage in epic battles with JoSim, far, far away).

I may toy with GOTW2 again, as I have it saved still, but I couldn't seem to establish any sort of strategy that would even allow for the preservation of my life, nevermind the preservation of my teamates or the taking of enemy lives.  I suck.

Am I supposed to be using slo-mo?  I haven't been.  Also, 30 minutes--are you insane!?!?  If this was a 3-minute challenge, it might intrigue me.  Think about it....  Bunker 1 has probably been attempted 40 million times.  That's only counting Wouter.  Aztec 00 has been attempted like 15 times all time.  People love playing the quick and easy challenges.  Well, those of us in the Elite, at least.  We are addicted to the short ones, because we can get the maximum amount of attempts in per hour.  Something that takes 30 minutes is a recipe for diaster.  (I.e., misfortunate in the 30th minute = 75 times the rage of missing the doorwarp on Bunker 1 agent).

I am now an ally of TGE.  I will be the official coordinator of interests here.  I also declare myself to be cool.
Derek Clark

"i'm 1.1 in my hart, u know that" - Matthijs ten Ham.