Author Topic: The Cinema Show  (Read 5620 times)

Lark

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« Reply #100 on: February 24, 2007, 02:49:00 pm »
Way to finally stick up for yourself, Boss. Everyone just needs to stfu.
Embrace the grind.

vitor

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« Reply #101 on: February 24, 2007, 03:01:00 pm »
I doubt it would be done without Cinema (my opinion, and I don't give a @#%$ to what you say), and I doubt even more that you would EVER say "this run wouldn't be 24 if wasn't for cinema". If you're so good at bunker 2, why did you turn it on? If Bryan played way less to get the 24, can't you play like 10x more, or isn't that enough? Oh wait, yeah, he sucks so much at the level, but got insanely lucky. You should have no problems in tieing it, since you played way more.

That's @#%$ retard, you guys will never admit that Bryan pwns you.

stan-the-man-1

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« Reply #102 on: February 24, 2007, 03:07:00 pm »
Why can't you guys accept that Bryan is just better than you!. :rolleyes   Saying a few of his PRs were a bit lucky is fair enough, but no one gets that lucky 60 times

RWG

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« Reply #103 on: February 24, 2007, 03:08:00 pm »
lol when Bryan got train 105 I posted that he's the best player here.  Dan agreed with that totally.  Wouter knows he's better and Illu I dunno but anyways.

We all know boss is better that us.  We just get upset when he gets a time faster than us eventhough we're better at the level.  

It happens often enough, but then again I guess it shows how much better he is that he can get WRs with so much less knowledge and time put into them than guys who are "the best" at that level.
"I want to be defined by the things that I love. Not the things I'm afraid of, or the things that haunt me in the middle of the night.  I just think that, you are what you love."  Taylor Swift, Daylight.

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vitor

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« Reply #104 on: February 24, 2007, 03:20:00 pm »
Finally we agree at something. Alex surely deserved that 24 for his skill and time put into it, but you can't say that Bryan is just freaking lucky, or something. He has "something" that makes him gets insane WRs "easily" and they still look like crap. So yeah, he's the best.

Boss

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« Reply #105 on: February 24, 2007, 03:41:00 pm »
I think my knowledge is what gets me WRs.  My skill is what clearly lacks (Depot, Aztec etc).

Wouter Jansen

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« Reply #106 on: February 24, 2007, 04:31:00 pm »
Quote
Quote:
I doubt it would be done without Cinema
you don't think Bryan got it? or that Bryan used cinema?
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Infected Mind

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« Reply #107 on: February 24, 2007, 04:51:00 pm »
I dont think cinema helps much on bunker 2 anymore. Played it a bit with 1.2 normal, was getting the same results. I guess I was just more comfortable with 1.2 in the following session. Seing as i played only an hour or so with it before, then switching to cinema, this can make sense.

Cinema does help me however, with my reaction time with the key kill Its personal preference. I guess this is where someone needs to TAS out this information.
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Lark

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« Reply #108 on: February 24, 2007, 04:54:00 pm »
Yea, I agree. I don't think cinema helps at all. I think people just think it's faster because everyone's in the mind set that it'll help your times. No one can really prove it's better. I don't think it holds any advantage over full screen at all.
Embrace the grind.

Boss

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« Reply #109 on: February 24, 2007, 04:56:00 pm »
It still might on Train.

CreepingDeath007

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« Reply #110 on: February 24, 2007, 04:58:00 pm »
I was trying it out on a few levels and I think I'll just continue using it anyway because you can see a lot more even if it isn't faster.

Wouter Jansen

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« Reply #111 on: February 24, 2007, 05:32:00 pm »
well I think it's 10 seconds slower now every minute that you waste using it.
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Narigutita

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« Reply #112 on: February 24, 2007, 06:04:00 pm »
i'm hoping that cinema doesn't help time at all
it would be boring to play it =/
to the hell with the totals!
-Narigutita

dragondragon18

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« Reply #113 on: February 24, 2007, 08:10:00 pm »
Whoa! Cinema completes the hostages every time!  No more waiting at the boat!
D Warrior

Wouter Jansen

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« Reply #114 on: February 24, 2007, 08:33:00 pm »
cinema is like popcorn popping into your back, small little boosts!
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Narigutita

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« Reply #115 on: February 24, 2007, 08:35:00 pm »
if thats true, wouter lost a lot of time of his life, haha
-Narigutita

dragondragon18

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« Reply #116 on: February 24, 2007, 08:36:00 pm »
Heh, I was just kidding by the way.  I wanted to see how you'd react Wouter  :D .
D Warrior

AEB

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« Reply #117 on: February 24, 2007, 08:39:00 pm »
Man, would that suck or what:p

Wouter Jansen

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« Reply #118 on: February 24, 2007, 08:43:00 pm »
but.. I didn't even react to you
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Discombobulator11

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« Reply #119 on: February 25, 2007, 01:22:00 am »
I kinda like cinema 16:9 in some levels like archives.  It helps see a wider area, and helps me to strafe around stuff, although I'm sure I could do it without it, but I can't help playing with a super thin bond ;)

Boss

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« Reply #120 on: February 25, 2007, 01:37:00 am »
What does 16:9 really mean anyways?

CreepingDeath007

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« Reply #121 on: February 25, 2007, 01:42:00 am »
It's the aspect ratio.  16:9 is widescreen TVs and 4:3 is standard size TVs.  (It's width divided by height I believe).

L4yer

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« Reply #122 on: February 25, 2007, 03:59:00 am »
Yeah 16:9 is used to not have to pillarbox (black bars on the side) 4:3 stuff on widescreen tvs to have the correct aspect ratio. That is no black bars at the top and bottom. Wide and cinema have black bars even on widescreen tvs, at least I think so. :lol

Discombobulator11

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« Reply #123 on: February 26, 2007, 01:54:00 am »
well, I did some pretty extensive target time tests on archives agent so see any differences b/w cinema 16:9, cinema, and normal.

What I did was capture runs that had good parts or that were 17 seconds overall (no 16 yet), and then I'd put them into vegas video, b/c I can go frame by frame to see something like how long it takes once the level starts to get to the stairs.  The good part is I get results to the second decimal, so that makes it quite testable.

I did about 15 or so runs total, that had similar starts or other parts of the level, and I've found that I was getting exactly the same target times regardless of which setting I was using.

At this point it should be thrown to opinion and choice, although I don't know about any other levels, but I'll do some time testing on those as well.

My preference right now is cinema, just because of being able to see a bit more on both sides, but again, it didn't matter what setting I used when I played Archives Agent.

Boss

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« Reply #124 on: February 26, 2007, 02:01:00 am »
Try it on Train..

Discombobulator11

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« Reply #125 on: February 26, 2007, 02:44:00 am »
ok, I'll have to watch the vid a bunch of times to see how to actually play the level these days, but I'll start on it right away chief!! I'll have it on my desk by monday morning.

Boss

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« Reply #126 on: February 26, 2007, 03:00:00 am »
Well just look more into the lag differences and stuff like that.

Discombobulator11

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« Reply #127 on: February 26, 2007, 04:50:00 am »
ok, yeah, it would be kinda hard to test exact TT's with so many random factors, but I'll try to make several captures and compare them.

Discombobulator11

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« Reply #128 on: February 26, 2007, 08:18:00 am »
Alrighty, after some exhaustivly tedious work, I have some info about the different modes on train.  First I'll explain what I did:

I started by turning on invisibility, because that seemed the best way to make some parts consistent, and it didn't seem to cause much difference b/c the enemies still do pretty much the exact same thing as they normally do aka pile out of the doors in the hallways.

I then chose three different spots in the level that I would create Target Times for.  Of course I needed to make them areas of the upmost possibility for consistency, so I chose the first hallway, the second hallway, and the path to the end.

For the first hallway, my checkpoint to start the clock was the first frame on his way going straight down the hall.  Meaning, when you come through the 2nd door, there's a small area there with an angled door compared to the hallway, and you have angle to the right first, then angle back left on your way to the third breaker.  My checkpoint was the first frame after the full left turn to straighten out.
I then ended the time with the checkpoint of being just past the last door on the left of the last room of the hallway.  I figured this would be a good place to stop b/c I haven't quite yet started shooting the 3rd breaker.

For the second hallway, I again used the checkpoint of starting my way straight down the hallway.  I also again ended just after the last door of the last room on the right.

For the ending, I started a bit after I dropped out of the vent that you have to laser to get through.  I did this to make sure I was in a straight line and had full momentum to be as accurate as possible.  I used a graphic marker on the ground to start the checkpoint.  I ended on the first frame where the time went away.

First off the details, then I'll try to make sense of them.

NORMAL MODE, NORMAL RATIO

First Hallway:
3.17
3.18
4.05
3.24
3.13

Second Hallway:
3.22
3.16
3.22
4.01
4.08

Ending:
??? (I messed up, just ignore it ;) )
11.21
11.14
11.27
11.10


WIDESCREEN, NORMAL RATIO

First Hall:
3.26
4.06
3.11
4.02
3.23

Second Hall:
3.19
4.08
4.05
3.21
3.27

Ending:
11.03
11.25
11.17
11.17
11.17


CINEMA, NORMAL RATIO

First Hall:
3.15
???(again, gay messup, shouldn't be significant)
3.10
3.15
3.16

Second Hall:
4.13
4.0
4.04
3.23
4.17

Ending:
10.27 (probably messed up the checkpoints)
11.06
11.16
11.09
11.23



CINEMA MODE, 16:9 RATIO

First Hall:
3.17
3.14
3.03
3.13
3.16

Second Hall:
4.04
3.24
3.28
3.23
3.27

Ending:
11.03
11.03
11.02
11.11
11.24


NOTES:

Ok, as you can see, I did five runs in each of these four modes.  I left out 16:9 ratio for normal and widescreen modes b/c I was already burnt out after these four ;)  and I also assume these are the most important, though I could easily be wrong.  I'll probably get around to doing the other two if you think that I really should after seeing the results.

I think that the most important statistic here would be the means of each hall for each mode.  Doing that you'd get:

Normal:
First Hall: 3.18
Second Hall: 3.22
Ending: about 11.18 with the goof up missing

Widescreen:
First Hall: 3.26
Second Hall: 3.27
Ending: 11.17

Cinema:
First Hall: about 3.14
Second Hall: 4.04
Ending: about 11.14 w/o the 10.27 that I probably messed up

Cinema w/ 16:9 Ratio
First Hall: 3.14
Second Hall: 3.27
Ending: 11.03

Putting them in groups yields:

First Hall:
3.18
3.26
3.14
3.14

Second Hall:
3.22
3.27
4.04
3.27

Ending:
11.18
11.17
11.14
11.03


As you can see these times are quite consistent throughout the modes.  You have to take account human error of course, and that unfortunately shows in my getting owned in the second hall in cinema mode :/

The first hall and the ending came up with ridiculously consistent results for each, which was nice to see.

Of course the question asked right now is, what does this tell us?  I've been thinking about that, and the best I can come up with is that the modes seem to convey consistently even results.  At least for train, it appears to me that there is no advantage whatsoever between modes.  Now this is of course my opinion, and I hope it seems like the right one, but of course I may have overlooked something, and I still have all of the runs on my computer, so if there is something I missed, or even something that I should test, I can do so.

With respect to other levels, I've only tested archives agent, and have come up with the same results as above, consistent throughout.

I did watch the comparison vid (forgot who made it :/) of Archives SA or whatever, as well as the beginning room and such b/w cinema and normal, and the best I can say is that it is hard to use two different runs like and match them up by just putting them side by side.  Human error will be too large an effect to notice, as in, he may have slapped the first guard a bit late, or strafed differently, or something of that nature.

I do believe that since cinema and widescreen do show more on the left and right sides, while keeping the top and bottom the same, may have made the conception that they must be faster, because they may be easy to use.

Another note is that it felt like there were fewer frames in the Normal mode vs. the others, b/c when I was scrolling frame to frame to get to the markers, Normal mode seemed to jump farther b/w each frame.  I could just be crazy though, b/c it is a different look than the others.

For me, I like regular cinema mode for archives, b/c it helps me adapt back into the game quicker, by being able to see the walls much easier.  I like Normal mode for bunker 1 agent because I have way too much trouble picking up the damn key in any other mode, plus I've played it in Normal way more than others.

I played runway agent some with cinema 16:9 and was getting consistent 23's, but I tend to just own on that level. I think the "worst" 23 I had was with 3 boosts, but I had gotten one of those way back in the early 1800's...I mean like 5 years ago when I was playing, so it really doesn't seem to mean much.

I also did use lookdown on each of the modes, to stay as consistent as possible, but I'm thinking of trying cinema or wide or 16:9 w/o lookdown to see if there's a difference at all, but I'm not expecting any.

WHEW EH?  Now that you've spent an hour reading this, the formal exam will be passed out, so put your books and notes away, and come up to the front to get your exam when I call your name.  The exam will last about three hours, and I hope you all die.

:)

DYM

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« Reply #129 on: February 26, 2007, 02:02:00 pm »
Why are all the times less than 0.3 decimal?

Widescreen is the better option here. I don't know about you guys but widescreen has less number of pixels, less stuff to concentrate on while pr'ing. Full screen is full of lag, especially for levels like Train and Jungle. I've noticed that the laser speed is also affected by lag. Not that it wastes time but gives a smoother feel whilst shooting the locks. Thus faster locks.

Cinema does help but I guess the locks turn out to be horrible.

Boss

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« Reply #130 on: February 26, 2007, 05:41:00 pm »
Quote
Quote:
I've noticed that the laser speed is also affected by lag. Not that it wastes time but gives a smoother feel whilst shooting the locks. Thus faster locks.


Hopefully cinema helps for this.

Discombobulator11

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« Reply #131 on: February 26, 2007, 08:45:00 pm »
it's still about feel though, speed isn't affected.  I found that I was relatively consistent (although still bad ;) ) at shooting out the locks in whichever mode I was in, but of course it's still my opinion.

Wouter Jansen

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« Reply #132 on: February 26, 2007, 08:52:00 pm »
I don't think you can accurately compare it when you aren't top speed all the time. The difference could be too small to notice by comparing but significant enough to notice in the difference of times..
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Matt-Cook1

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« Reply #133 on: February 26, 2007, 10:13:00 pm »
Yeah, even if only 0.02 is saved over 3 seconds (which you couldn't conclude is actually happening), that would save 20*0.02 = 0.4 seconds over a minute, which is certainly something to cheer over.

Perhaps a better check would be to run a test for an hour of real world time. Alert quite a few guards, then just go stand somewhere where they can run around in front of you. If a difference actually exists, then that would weed it out. Mind you, one test wouldn't be enough for a conclusion. If 10 people did it on a level each, a conclusion could be reached.


Discombobulator11

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« Reply #134 on: February 26, 2007, 10:17:00 pm »
yeah, that is a good point, I didn't think of the fact that many milliseconds would be significant enough to matter.  That is a decent suggestion to alert a bunch of guards and stand there for a while, and that is much easier to test b/c I could just let him stand there ;)

I'm trying to think of the best level to try that on, and I'm having a brain fart.  Any suggestions?

Also, I'm probably going to not do it for like an hour, maybe like 20-30 minutes, b/c capturing it might be a big file :)

Discombobulator11

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« Reply #135 on: February 26, 2007, 10:21:00 pm »
ooh, I think I'm gonna try depot, b/c the guards regenerate and chase you.  I think I'll put on invincibility, so they can see me and I wont die, so I can last for an elongated amount of time.

I can then just start a checkpoint that shouldn't be the most crucial in the world, but I'll try to make it consistent.  I'll leave it on for half an hour, first on normal, then on cinema, to compare those, then I'll move on if I think the situation shows any promise in difference.

Discombobulator11

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« Reply #136 on: February 26, 2007, 11:02:00 pm »
wait, what would this show again?  Doing it for a an hour or whatever with guards in front of you is going to calculate to an hour in each mode...

Kind of like, what's heavier: a pound of feathers or a pound of bricks.

Not really sure what you're trying to see on this one.

vitor

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« Reply #137 on: February 26, 2007, 11:04:00 pm »
Maybe they want you to check if you don't lose time with lag, with cinema on.

Boss

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« Reply #138 on: February 27, 2007, 12:19:00 am »
Standing still doesn't really matter so much here.  A better test is to just strafe a section back and forth over and over for some minutes (something very easy to strafe to eliminate human error).

Discombobulator11

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« Reply #139 on: February 27, 2007, 04:34:00 am »
what would I be looking for by strafing back and forth?  am I just looking to sort of "eye it" as to whether or not the lag is the same?

Just wondering, I feel like getting to the heart of this situation, so that if cinema is somehow faster, I want to be the first to get an untied, as I was the first to get an untied with lookdown :P :)

Wouter Jansen

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« Reply #140 on: February 27, 2007, 01:41:00 pm »
good luck and you should first get your skills back up to par, like strafing ;)  you'll need it!
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L4yer

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« Reply #141 on: February 27, 2007, 05:58:00 pm »
The timer is the key here. Figuring out whether lag (the fps) affects the timer should be first. Assuming the mission timer and in game timer is based of the same code, a better test would be this:

- go to a level with an in game timer like streets/silo on emulator
- pause, switch to video options in game and make a savestate there <- important for consistency
- test each mode (cinema etc) by going ahead a specific number of frames after unpausing and note the time on the timer, it is important to wait and test each mode with the same start and end frame, the starting frame should be after the timer has appeared back on screen after unpausing

I'm sure henrik would know how to do this. It should apply to console too if there is any difference.


Discombobulator11

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« Reply #142 on: February 27, 2007, 07:47:00 pm »
well, I don't exactly know how easy it will be to make a save state on the console......but I'll try@#@#@#@#@! NOT

Haha Wouter, I knew that depot vid was going to be embarrassing :/  Have you even gotten a WR in the past 5 years either??? ZING>>>>j/k j/k ;)  <3

Matt-Cook1

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« Reply #143 on: February 27, 2007, 07:56:00 pm »
Uh maybe you're right, but I thought an hour isn't an hour, due to lag. I thought if there's super lag the time will be larger than if it was smooth. Now that you mention it, I guess maybe saving time via smoothness doesn't affect the time, but how far you can move, over time (how many new states can be shown, over time).

Thoughts? Anyone know which it is?

Lovins

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« Reply #144 on: February 27, 2007, 08:01:00 pm »
I would think it's how far you can move...otherwise you could time a 1:56 streets with a stopwatch and it be maybe 1:58 in real time, but that's not the case.

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« Reply #145 on: February 27, 2007, 08:38:00 pm »
Actually, thats exactly how i felt about it. Seems like cinema looks the same speed but saves time mysteriously.

Discombobulator11

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« Reply #146 on: February 27, 2007, 08:51:00 pm »
Ah, I think I get it now.  You want me to record the level as I start it, then take the comparison of real time, to the time that it says when I exit the level.  I'll see if that has any difference.

Wouter Jansen

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« Reply #147 on: February 27, 2007, 10:58:00 pm »
I never got any WRs! where you getting that from? :p
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Discombobulator11

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« Reply #148 on: February 28, 2007, 01:02:00 am »
well, I did a couple more tests.  This time I went on Runway and went up and down the runway for 10 minutes on each of cinema and normal, and they both registered 10 minutes exactly, meaning that they keep up with real time, and still seem to be the same.

Again, lemme know if there's any other ideas that you can think of to make this more definitive, but for now I'd go with them being the same.  I just think the different look makes things appear faster or something, seems all mental ;)

Matt-Cook1

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« Reply #149 on: February 28, 2007, 01:25:00 am »
Haha... I have a test, I reckon... only problem is you have to sit and count:

Set it to 1.1 and cruise on a 45 degree angle. Go to a wide open area and do circles for 10 minutes (or so). Which setting can do the most circles?