New Ranking idea which should be up on the elite's rank page

[..]

Octo, there are inherent flaws in any system we'd adopt, and in the current system.  There isn't much way to get around them without being entirely too complex and objective towards certain players/times/achievements, hence my suggestion earlier.

I think it would be possible to break down the system I explained a bit more, though the game doesn't really give a very good method of that.  If you use the obvious division of A/SA/00A, you'll encounter problems on levels where things are mostly the same (think of Statue, Facility SA/00, Streets SA/00, etc).

Above all, I think if any major change is made to the REAL rankings (not any side rankings that you guys can make yourselves and host on SRW), we need to keep in mind that new players DO still appear at this place.  The extensive growth and appeal of The Elite is in its' simplicity.  You, of all people, should know how tough it is as a new player to adapt to the incredibly complicated Kart rankings systems, which is something we need to avoid here.  New players can and will highly impact the future of the ranks, as has been seen over the past 2 or 3 years.

[Infected Mind]

The rankings with Bonus points for untied would also be neat.

Aztec 00 for example would be worth 100 for 147+ 1 point 151,150,149,148,147, giving 105 points.

Just as a side rankings, this would be cool. on top of that 2nd place is only 90.

Giving a Huge reward on the higher ranked players to tie untied records, or untie more records themselves. Some people just dont have the motivation to get a WR they maybe dont care for, but this would push them to play the levels they need to improve on more, if they wanna stay high up. gotta get them WRs

[dragondragon18]

An average rank would be nice, like how mariokart has.  If your average rank missions is 130th, you'll want to work on the ones that are worse to bring your average up.

[Boss]

Well Wouter can compete to lower overall totals if no one exists in the world, but I think almost everyone else needs COMPETITION to bother with this type of speedrunning.  That's why I didn't bother that long with TWINE/GE Turbo once I got so far ahead in those (given the time).  I do start lose the motivation when I'm beating the @#%$ out of the field.  Only when the field is closer (like now) do I want to play hard again.

[Wouter Jansen]

but there's no need for points to have competition.

[Boss]

Well what system would work then?

[vitor]

Well, Slayer passed me on brazilian PD ranks, and I was motivated to play again (got 2 WRs and a bunch of nice PRs, putting me close to FB). If wasn't for him, I'd be confortable on top. We need a system that motivate people to play, regardless their position.

You could also calculate the extra points based on the seconds that the WR has. For example, an untied that's between 20 and 30 seconds (such as frigate 23), would give like 20 points (20 from its strenght x 1 second ahead), because an untied there is much harder. But Control 00A would give like 14 extra points (let's say, 2 x 7 seconds ahead). You can't just give points to untieds, because there are untieds and untieds. Frigate is a better WR than Control 00A, so you can't just give one extra point for it, and give 7 extra points to Bryan for his Control.

[Narigutita]

isnt that too complex?

[SpiderWaffle]

I think first we need to agree on how we want the new ranking system to reward times differently, and what properties we want it to have, then we can try and come up with best and simplest ways to achieve that.

NEW REWARDS

1.  Give great rewards to untieds | encourages total time to get improved
2.  Give larger point seperation between 4th and 5th ranked times | encourages players to try for good times even if it's only 4th best
3.  Larger point seperation between 1st and 2nd ranked times | encourages people to play for WRs

PROPERTIES

1. Simple enough for new players to understand quickly | encourages new players to play for points

2. Be ojective and value each second cut off the total time the same | Keeps things simple enough and doesn't make how one lowers the total time subjective.  By not caring how one lowers the total time, this will make lowering the total time happen as much as possible.

[Boss]

In the end the system will stay how it is.  The pages I made (see WR times *stats* topic thing) should give incentives to set untieds and see how long they can last through the test of time.   Wouter can say he owns the longest standing WR and the longest standing untied.  If you set something insane now, you might be able to say the same thing some years down the road though some of the oldest WRs are very difficult to beat (if not impossible), but who knows.

[octoinky]

steve, I believe that a system that simply changes todays points is not very complicated at all.  I dont agree with any crazy formula scheme, I just think that adopting a new point system could do some good for motivation.  why dont we just see what rankings look like in a few other point ideas.  Screw the untied WR bonuses, just add it yourself from the MVP if you're curious, but I dont think this needs to be complicated.

[Lark]

I'm for any new ideas on the point rankings as long as it doesn't take over the original we have now.

Any extra page would be nice, but for tradition why not just stick with the old?


If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[flukey lukey]

the way i see it is that an untied benefits the player the most because it means you gain a record, but everyone else loses it. screw giving extra points for it. but wtf, you DO get extra points for an untied. atm = 3, if the point allocation extends out to 100, 90, 85... this will mean untieds are 10+ points above the rest, and that no one else has that record, lowering other peoples total WRs. please dont give bonuses for untieds, it makes things unnecessarily complicated and add little to no extra modivation for players to get untieds. and also, even the possibility of having over 6000 points seems ridiculous to me and im sure others would agree. so im trying to say this:

1. I like the idea of spreading out the point allocations (100, 90, 85...), this means that untieds give 10+ extra points other than 3+ and will help separate the top players and possibly bring lowly ranked players up the ranks if they are getting WR's

2. WR rank should change so that tiebreakers are determined by the players points, not (00>SA>A)

3. Lets just keep it fun and simple, thats what got me into speedrunning

[RWG]

just what about beating your OWN untied eh? what about that! :P

[vitor]

Quote:but wtf, you DO get extra points for an untied. atm = 3

If people'd get the same points for the untied and the first time after it, something would be REALLY wrong. By "extra points" I think we all mean points that will increase that 3 points difference.

[flukey lukey]

yeah i know what your saying, i just worded it badly i guess. i believe my 2nd and 3rd points are the most important ones

[SpiderWaffle]

If you do 100, 90, 95, and no untied bonuses your giving 10 points for the first second of united and no points for each second after that.  You see, that is a problem.  By doing this you only encourage players to get 1 second uniteds, and if your beat by 8 seconds on one record you get nothing if you manage to cut off 7 seconds.  This is a problem.

Fortunetly there is a simple way to correct it.  You can either add certain number of points for each second or subtract a certain number of points from the second place time for each second.  Also you could subtract the same way from the 3rd place time.  Basically instead of using the current equations:

r1=100
r2=r1-3
r3=r2-2
r4=r3-1

You'd use ones like this:

r1=100
r2=r1-10-x
r3=r2-5
r4=r3-3
r5=r4-2
...

Or what I like:

r1=100
r2=r1-10-2x
r3=r2-5-x
r4=r3-3
r5=r4-2
...

[bcks]

To me, trying to find point values for untieds is pointless, there are very few levels where untieds will last forever. Also do you really think bryans 8 second untied will last forever?, i don't, sure it still could be the wr, but people will get closer, and closer(se3cond by second), eventualy getting with a second or 2 of it, the gaps will fill, all this talk of points, for untied seconds difference, will be pointless in the long run.

[SpiderWaffle]

By that same agruement you could say eventually wouter will be first by the end of our lives so keeping a point system is therefor pointless in the longrun.

The shorterm matters, I mean come on...

Illu is never going to bother trying for byran's controll record with the current point system, The only way he would want to go for it is if he thinks cutting off 8 seconds will be the easiest 3 points he can get, which won't happen untill he has like every other WR.

[Brucmack]

Quote:Also do you really think bryans 8 second untied will last forever?, i don't, sure it still could be the wr, but people will get closer, and closer(se3cond by second), eventualy getting with a second or 2 of it, the gaps will fill, all this talk of points, for untied seconds difference, will be pointless in the long run.

But there's still no point incentive for someone to try to get within 1 or 2 seconds of the record. If Illu had 4:14 instead of 4:21, it'd make no difference in points. But if Bryan got bonus points for an 8-second untied, then Illu could get closer by chipping away at those bonus points.

[bcks]

Quote:Illu is never going to bother trying for byran's controll record with the current point system, The only way he would want to go for it is if he thinks cutting off 8 seconds will be the easiest 3 points he can get, which won't happen untill he has like every other WR.

I bet Illu will go lower(its not as if he hates the level), and so will others, bryan won't be the only great player on control forever. Sure 413 might last along time or forever, but the gap will not be a gap in the future imo.
Will bryan go for a second lower?, only if he wants 412 or lower, i doubt gaining a point or 2, will inspire him to go for lower. Going for 412 would inspire him more then gaining a point on illu.



Who the fuck is stretching the page?

[Boss]

412?  Try 409 minimum..

[SpiderWaffle]

Quote:i doubt gaining a point or 2, will inspire him to go for lower.

It doesn't have to inspire him, the the total time and MVP rankings also do that.  The key point is that if he does get it lower he has improved times, which should be reflected in the points rankings, where as constant point rankings don't do that.  This is a flaw in the ranking system.  However, the solution is as simple as adding a -x in the spreadsheet equation.

On a side note, shouldn't RI have 13 MVP points and RW have 7?  It would be great if MVP ranks could tie into the same spread sheet and be featured on the main rankings page so they'd update automatically.

[flukey lukey]

back to what i was saying about Untieds already being worth more, because it means second best gets 10 points less. what your arguing is that 1 second untieds works in this situation, but larger untieds on control and stuff don't work.

This is full of crap.

why should the point allocations depend on the level? thats what i want to know. i mean, if i can play for 200 hours and get a really lucky run on caverns 00A and get 1:37, i will have many bonus points for untying it by a large amount. But if i play 200 hours and still cant manage to get 1:02, or finally get it, i only have that 10 point difference. why should people with untieds on longer stages get these "bonus points". c rap.

i think Bryan probably likes having those control untieds so far away from the pack because he knows hes safe with them. so thats an advantage! he is safe with that 10 points gap, safer than say a 1 second untied. or maybe not... *hopes this makes sense*

[Henning Blom]

stick with the old point system...it pwns

[vitor]

Luke, that's what I said on the other post. You could have extra points based on the seconds that the WR has. I also think it's stupid to give 7 points to Bryan for his Control and 1 point to Wouter for his Frigate. So you could set WRs "strenghts" like this:

* time between - strenght *
10 to 20s - 30
20 to 30s - 28
...
4:10 to 4:20 - 6 (or whatever, didn't calculate)

So if anyone gets 25 Depot, that person will get the 100 points plus 28 (strenght) x 1 (second ahead) = 28 extra points. Bryan would gain 6 (strenght) x 8 (seconds ahead) = 48 extra points for his Control 00A. If Illu or anyone get like 4:15, Bryan will only gain 6 x 2 = 12 extra points. If his 4:13 gets tied, both players will only get 100 points.

I have no idea about the non-wr times, tho. Dunno if would be cool to use other system or just keep it the way it is.  

[Wouter Jansen]

fucking POINT WHORES.

why not incalculate the extra difficulty for those players with thumbs the size of a refridgerator? or detract a point for each guard that didn't go in his path but jumped away instead? etc etc bunch of bananas on the ground and you will slip if you don't look out.

[bcks]

[vitor]

Just because you only play for WRs, doesn't mean that everybody else has to

[Lark]

Everyone keeps saying how Illu or Bryan won't have motivation if untieds or people that have WR's aren't rewarded. They're just saying this since they went the benefits of having those extra points if they ever get a WR. Saying that they're looking out for Bryan or Illu is just a cover up.

A new ranking system isn't even necessary considering the fact that most of the top players don't care about points anyway, especially Wouter.

Hence Illu continuing to lower his uniteds on Aztec and Bryan's on Control. Or even Goose on silo.

[SpiderWaffle]

Some people think caverns 1:02 should be worth more points than caverns 00 1:37, some don't.  If you just go by time cut off your being completely objective and it keeps things simple enough.  When you try and say that some seconds are worth more than others you start being subjective and things get complicated.

Making united seconds worth the same isn't so bad.  First of, all the bonus isn't that huge compared with the initial 10 points you'd get, so if it is a flaw, it's not that big.  Remember, ever system will have flaws, but making it simpler can be worth having a small flaw.  Second of all, if you reward bigger uniteds more than smaller but harder ones you will see the total time drop more, which is a good thing, and should be the ultimate goal of the elite.

Breaking the levels down into how long each takes and rewarding the points that way I find too complicated for the benefit.  Also, I'm not so sure it improves how we should be trying to reward people.  The larger levels would get ignored more and these are the ones where the most potential time could drop.  Also, a level like control for example only has like 40 seconds of actual skilled speedrunning, the rest is just waiting.  Why should you get so little points for improving this time just because you have to wait for a long time; where in essence you've taken a 48 second time down to 40.

The only system I could see where some seconds are valued more than others would be making agent seconds worth more than SA and 00.  This is objective and simple enough.  You'd basically just use something like 3x, 2x, 2x for the three difficulties.

[Wouter Jansen]

your system is flawed, it makes typos all over the place  

[flukey lukey]

i have it.

untieds no matter what level or difficulty are worth 110 points. WRs are worth 100 points. next best is 90, then 85, then so on. think about it. this means people will want to get untieds, And tie untieds so therefor push for a better total time. Also there will be no discrepency about which seconds are worth more than others. simple, to the point, value for untieds, and the best players will have a good score  !!

[RWG]

why doesnt everyone just get to a @#%$ rank they like, realize rank doesnt matter, and then just turn out wicked WRs??

[Lark]

That's what I'm going to do, minus getting the sick WR's part.  

Any rank in the 40's would be nice.